So, I'm engaged to be married in a month after a 3 year courtship. I'm also 11 weeks pregnant. Our pastor heard through the rumor mill, and cornered me this evening before the service.

He wants me and my fiance to write a confession and go before a Sunday service -about 300 people, many strangers- and ask for forgiveness from the church body..

I kinda have some issues with this, we've made things right with our parents, we've made things right in our hearts to God.... I really could care less what everyone else thinks. I'm 30 years old, he is 33, we're grown ups and know what we did, and we've made it right in our lives. We've moved on, and are now reveling in our blessing and thanking God for allowing us to have a baby.

Does your church do this? Could someone help me to understand why we have to do this? We've really moved on, and I know in my heart that if I went before the church and said I was sorry it would be a big fat lie...

Pm'ing you.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/signs001.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

Thanks for taking the time, I appreciate it!

They told me I could step down on my own, or they would have to "remove" me from the position. I stepped down, and to be completely honest, quit going to that church. But there is a lot more to it than that, (you can read into the whole issues surrounding my marriage I mentioned in the pm)


Honestly dude, if they wanted me to step down, I certainly would. I love teaching Cubbies, but I'm sure they could find someone else to be the leader. My shirt is starting to get a little tight anyways. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/laughing001.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

I passed up communion a couple weeks ago, not because I have "issues" that I have to deal with, but because I don't feel like I should be taking communion right now.. Maybe after the wedding, maybe after I have the baby..

I'm really trying to find the definitive difference between public and private sin.. I really feel like this is a uber private matter, and announcing it to the church will only feed the rumor mill... I had an abortion 8 years ago and I've been dealing with that everyday since. It actually causes me to feel as though I have done something SO EVIL, SO BAD, SO TERRIBLE that God will never forgive me for that one sin.. Everything else is at the deepest part of the sea except that one big ugly black mark.

I feel that way because after I had the procedure done, I never menstruated again. I figured God was punishing me for the whole thing by making me sterile..

But then, I had a BFP... I felt completely redeemed instantly.. It was the first time in my life that I had the feeling of complete and total forgiveness and affirmation of my salvation and true knowledge that God had buried it....

There's not a snowballs chance that I'm going to share something that personal and private with the congregation..

ETA... I remember David dancing in the streets!!! I read it somewhere.. oh yea... In the Bible..

I'm sure, Nichole, if she see's this (hope I'm not volunteering you, hon) or madre, (again, not volunterring, ) would have some insightful info, from a Biblical perspective.


dude, but I would not be getting up in front of 300 people i barely know to humiliate myself.

Religious spirits love to glory in people's shame so they can use that shame to control and manipulate them. Period.

and you didn't sin against the congregation, so it's not their business anyway. If they are talking about it through the rumor mill, they ought to be darn well apologizing to YOU for being gossips, busybodies and talebearers.

1 Timothy 5:24
Some men’s sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgment, but those of some men follow later.

I have never seen a church that wasn't absolutely soaked in religion, gossip, manipulation, backbiting and... well, the list goes on eh? And they worry about people who are planning to get married having sex. Good grief!

Biblically, what is marriage about? Oh, yeah, that's right, Rebekah went into Isaac's tent and *poof* they were married. It was a *ahem* private ceremony.

Anyways just deal with Jesus directly. You don't have to go through a pastor or jump through all his hoops. Personally I wouldn't be caught dead in a church where they *forced* people to "confess" publically. The only instance in which one should do that is if they FEEL, of their own volition, that it is necessary, or, Jesus tells them to. But it sounds like your pastor has no idea what Jesus is trying to accomplish in your life and is just running on "religious thinking" that isn't going to bring healing but instead humiliation in front of people you barely know?

I'm really trying to find the definitive difference between public and private sin.. I really feel like this is a uber private matter, and announcing it to the church will only feed the rumor mill... I had an abortion 8 years ago and I've been dealing with that everyday since. It actually causes me to feel as though I have done something SO EVIL, SO BAD, SO TERRIBLE that God will never forgive me for that one sin.. Everything else is at the deepest part of the sea except that one big ugly black mark.

Jesus can forgive anything. It sounds like you already have repented..... one major mistake I have made myself is keep asking for forgiveness when I already got it... I have been learning to stop asking for forgiveness after i've already repented and start asking for healing instead...

I am not against public church discipline but, only when it's led by the Spirit and backed up biblically. Also you will notice in the bible the only discipline was reserved for people who were unrepentant... Jesus never publically humiliated people who had repented... he told them "Go and sin no more"... the only people he publically did stuff to were those who were unrepentant and exploiting the true faithful (i.e. greedy merchants selling wares in the temple or the religious pharisees.) It's, um, ironic how churches have turned that clear principle upside down and now we have expensive religious items to buy and pastors telling us what to do and what not to do.

anyways i have to keep going back to edit my posts because hearing crap that goes on like this at churches steams me up so bad i could swear like a sailor, so, i had best stop now. lol.

So whenever I get worried about if I am doing what I am supposed to be doing to please God, I read the letters in revelation and 1 John..... I want to be an overcomer so I always figure that is a good place to start. I don't remember reading "and hang out your dirty laundry before the whole church" in there though.

(((hugs))) I agree it's not a sin against your church. I certainly wouldn't stand up in front of them all. I think that's a bit ridiculous. I mean if the church was a place for confession, then thats all people would get done. Because in God's eyes all sins are the same. So you'd have to have everyone get up and spill they're guts every week. Nope, doesn't make any sense to me.

So, I'm engaged to be married in a month after a 3 year courtship. I'm also 11 weeks pregnant. Our pastor heard through the rumor mill, and cornered me this evening before the service.

He wants me and my fiance to write a confession and go before a Sunday service -about 300 people, many strangers- and ask for forgiveness from the church body..

I kinda have some issues with this, we've made things right with our parents, we've made things right in our hearts to God.... I really could care less what everyone else thinks. I'm 30 years old, he is 33, we're grown ups and know what we did, and we've made it right in our lives. We've moved on, and are now reveling in our blessing and thanking God for allowing us to have a baby.

Does your church do this? Could someone help me to understand why we have to do this? We've really moved on, and I know in my heart that if I went before the church and said I was sorry it would be a big fat lie...

Sorry, to me, it's the pastor's call. We can discuss all day whether it's biblical, right, just, etc. However, every pastor has personal convictions as to who he will/won't marry and what will be required of those people.

I think it might be good if you and your fiance would meet with your pastor privately to discuss the issues, your questions, and whether writing a letter is really necessary.

I didn't think that was the issue here....did I miss something? Because I do completely agree Madre that it is totally a pastor's call on who they marry because they will stand before God and answer for that.

But I wasn't thinking that was the issue here. I was under the impression that he wants for them to publicly air the sin. Which is why I asked if they had asked why. And forgiveness is not the business of the church body. Forgiveness is of the Lord's and His only. God doesn't dole out forgiveness based on whether or not a church body grants it.

The issue is the pastor wants the couple to publicly confess and ask forgiveness before the church/whoever else is present at the time. I understand. That's why I suggested that they talk to the pastor and ask him their questions:

Why is he asking this of them?
What is his thinking?
How is he looking at it?
Is this really necessary?

If he shares his views and truly feels that he has a biblical position, what are you gonna do? I don't think this man is alone in this kind of thinking. I am not saying he has a biblical position, but what we think about it is kind of a moot point.

What has the church policy been for others? I wouldn't do it myself and I wouldn't want to go to a church that would. Everyone sins and if we all had to stand there and confess all each week we would never make it out of church! I don't see where it is anyone else's business. It is between God, you, and your future husband. I can see where you would have to step down from working with kids but I think that is all.

The issue is the pastor wants the couple to publicly confess and ask forgiveness before the church/whoever else is present at the time. I understand. That's why I suggested that they talk to the pastor and ask him their questions:

Why is he asking this of them?
What is his thinking?
How is he looking at it?
Is this really necessary?

If he shares his views and truly feels that he has a biblical position, what are you gonna do? I don't think this man is alone in this kind of thinking. I am not saying he has a biblical position, but what we think about it is kind of moot. I too think it would be a good idea to see what the pastor's reasoning on the issue is, if he hasn't explained it already.

I know that personally, I don't think I would be willing to write a confession and speak publicly before a whole congregation regarding a personal sin of mine, in part because I think it would create more problems with gossip and backbiting than it would help.

However, I can see how if a couple were leaders or teachers in a congregation, that parishoners especially parents of children and teens might feel a statement about this kind of issue would be necessary. Basically, a statement of "We screwed up. We shouldn't have done this because it's against God's laws, and because it's harmful in XYZ ways. We should've waited until we were married first. If we could go back and re-do that moment, we would wait instead until we were married, and we're sorry we sinned before God." But said with the intent to educate the children and teens of the congregation, that this kind of behavior isn't to be followed or condoned. Some times, the best educators on this kind of matter are the folks that are willing to say that they did it, and that they were wrong, and explain exactly why it was wrong in God's eyes and why it was harmful.

I can also see where parents would be worried that their kids would see it as Teacher X and Mr. Y got pregnant before they got married and everything went on like normal, so it must not be that big of a deal. YK, the thinking that "Yes its a sin, but it's not really that big of a deal if other church members are doing it".

Again though, I'm a private person, and I think I would offer to step down from any teaching positions before I paraded my personal sins before a congregation of hundreds of people. It's a difficult situation for sure. [hug] to you OP!

Have you prayed about this issue and asked God what he feels you should do? Your situation is unique to you and God's going to have the best answer for you about what's necessary and what He wants you to do. Have you and your fiancee prayed about this together and really sought God for an answer?

I didn't think that was the issue here....did I miss something? Because I do completely agree Madre that it is totally a pastor's call on who they marry because they will stand before God and answer for that.

One more thing, I assumed that the pastor would not perform the ceremony unless a public confession was made first. Is that correct?

What has the church policy been for others?

It's how it is, I guess... Pastor's son was caught drinking in college, and tossed out. His son did it...

One more thing, I assumed that the pastor would not perform the ceremony unless a public confession was made first. Is that correct?

Even after a public confession is made, and forgiveness is given the policy is that a private ceremony will be preformed. Which doesn't make sense to me.... If it's forgiven, shouldn't it be forgotten? I don't understand why a private ceremony is the only kind that the pastor will do after a public confession is made... But it's like you said, Pastor is the man and makes the rules and what he says goes... I mean, I don't have to agree with it, I just want to understand it.

I too think it would be a good idea to see what the pastor's reasoning on the issue is, if he hasn't explained it already.

Again though, I'm a private person, and I think I would offer to step down from any teaching positions before I paraded my personal sins before a congregation of hundreds of people. It's a difficult situation for sure. [hug] to you OP!

Have you prayed about this issue and asked God what he feels you should do? Your situation is unique to you and God's going to have the best answer for you about what's necessary and what He wants you to do. Have you and your fiancee prayed about this together and really sought God for an answer?

I plan on meeting with him tomorrow if he has free time.. I'm afraid that I will get defensive, I don't want to be that way. I know that his intentions are loving, there's no doubt that they are.. But I know that the intentions of the gossipers wasn't, and that hurts SO much. I'm certain that it was my Deacon's wife who told him, I had gone to her for some advice with this, I guess she took it upon herself to "help me"..

I think I'll be stepping down from Cubbies regardless, if I parade my sins or not, I'll be stepping down.

Yea, we'll be doing that.. I'm not going to sit down and pray about this until I can do so without distractions.. I was so upset over all this last night, my mind wasn't clear enough to actually concentrate on this.. This is serious, and I want to treat it as such, I'm not going to be going to prayer flippantly, I'm going to set out when I can actually buckle down and do it properly.. My fiancee went over to the home of the Pastor who is set to marry us, and spoke to him for a couple hours. They are both combat vets (different wars of course), and he feels more comfortable discussing things with that Pastor instead. He wanted to let that Pastor know what was going on before he heard it from a different source.

He's also going to be calling on the head pastor as well today, after work. I'll go along with whatever my future husband tells me to do, I trust him completely as my spiritual leader. If he says that we need to go do this together, I'll stand by his side.

Even after a public confession is made, and forgiveness is given the policy is that a private ceremony will be preformed. Which doesn't make sense to me.... If it's forgiven, shouldn't it be forgotten? I don't understand why a private ceremony is the only kind that the pastor will do after a public confession is made..

That is sad. I agree with you that doesn't make sense. It should be forgiven and forgotten. And honestly to make it "right" you should get married, so yeah that doesn't add up in my mind. If you want a public wedding I might see about getting a different pastor to do it. Just a thought.

Even after a public confession is made, and forgiveness is given the policy is that a private ceremony will be preformed. Which doesn't make sense to me.... If it's forgiven, shouldn't it be forgotten? I don't understand why a private ceremony is the only kind that the pastor will do after a public confession is made... But it's like you said, Pastor is the man and makes the rules and what he says goes... I mean, I don't have to agree with it, I just want to understand it.

Pastor isn't supposed to make the rules. Whenever did we decide PASTORS MAKE THE RULES? Even Peter the apostle had to be held accountable when he was not operating in the Spirit (by being legalistic). Religious spirits thrive in false spiritual government. The only authority any church leader should have is when they are moving in the Spirit. But in this situation it sounds like the pastor is being motivated by what he heard through gossip and "looks" instead of what is actually going on. It's not words of salvation and healing, he wants to control and punish you (by only having a private ceremony)??? that is so bizarre. I mean he probably has "good intentions", most people do, but that doesn't mean we have to submit to their false commandments of men. We are only obliged to obey the commandments of the Lord. Has he claimed to have heard from the Lord on this matter? Because if not then what biblical basis does he have for this "punishment" of no public ceremony? is it his job to punish you for things you have already repented of?!

Here are 3 articles on church authority and spiritual abuse

http://www.batteredsheep.com/abuse.html
http://www.batteredsheep.com/bible_spiritual.html
http://www.batteredsheep.com/authority.html

Since we agree that God sees all sin as sin, and none worse than the other, I don't feel that it is right to have you guys go up and publicly announce this one. If we had this policy at my church, I would be up there every week with something (as I assume most people would). I also think my list would last a long time (I got mad at my husband this week, I was impatient with my kids this week, I yelled at someone in traffic this week and a million other things I guess).

Luckily we don't have this policy and the church accepted us in with no strings attached. I was a single mother engaged to be married (to a man not the father of my daughter) at the time we joined the church. No announcement of my sin was necessary.

So all that is to say, maybe you could consider changing churches. If you are really uncomfortable with their policies and the way the church is run it may be time to see what else God has out there for you guys.

I will pray for you and your situation. I know that this must be very hurtful, and it never feels good to be cornered and confronted or talked about (especially when you are emotional and pregnant). So hang in there, lean on your husband-to-be and try to give this up to God. He here with you in this situation too!

Congratulations on your new little baby, I can't wait to talk with you more in the pregnancy forum.

Kendra

I will pray for you and your situation. I know that this must be very hurtful, and it never feels good to be cornered and confronted or talked about (especially when you are emotional and pregnant). So hang in there, lean on your husband-to-be and try to give this up to God. He here with you in this situation too!

Congratulations on your new little baby, I can't wait to talk with you more in the pregnancy forum.

Kendra



Thank you Kendra, those are very kind words.. And thanks for the congrats..That means alot..

We talked about it this afternoon, I think we're going to do something during the evening service on Sunday... I really can't bring myself to apologizing or asking for forgiveness as I don't feel that would be honest of me.. If I WAS sorry for offending the congregation, I would apologize for it, but I don't feel as though I've done anything to personally offend.. I'm not looking for a cop-out, I really don't feel convicted of that...

But I do feel convicted to confess---to a point.. I have been wearing baggy clothes and trying my best to hide what's starting to become obvious. I feel as though I am being dishonest. And the Deaconesses want to throw me a bridal shower .. I don't want to deceive anyone...

DF wants to quell the rumors publicly and move on... I can absolutely see his point. He feels bad because he cannot express his excitement and joy regarding our blessing. He has to hide it..

He wants to show off my belly and say "Look what I DID!!!"..[rofl] Nerd. He wants to move on, and get on with life, but what he said to me today was, "I want to start our marriage off with honesty and I want to quit hiding and sneaking." I can see his point of view, I understand where he is coming from..

Our evening services have about a quarter of the people in them, and consist of the people that we know closely in the church. We stand up, and say that we want to set the rumors straight; we are going to have a baby in May, and if anyone feels deceived then we are sorry for that, and hope they can forgive and come to our wedding anyway.

Just to SHUT PEOPLE UP..[whataaargghsign]

I'm not going to say that I'm saw-wee, and I'm not going to ask that Joe the Plumber forgive me, but I do legitimately feel bad for wearing the baggy clothes, and trying to hide this.. But then again, I don't know if I want to share this yet, because I'm not that far along.. And If I have a miscarriage, I don't want the whole church to know... I'd rather deal with that one privately..

This is just a thought, but if you step down from your teaching position, do you really think you'd have to publicly announce anything to the church even at an evening ceremony?

If you feel that God wants you to talk about this publicly you certainly should of course,

But I would guess you could "right" things simply by not trying to hide the pregnancy anymore. People probably already know that you're pregnant because of the stupid rumor mill. Go on with life as normal, and if somebody asks about it before you actually get married, tell them the truth. "Yes I am pregnant. "Fiancee" and I were weak and messed up, but God has forgiven us and blessed us with a baby. We're really excited to be parents." and then change the subject if you don't want to talk about it anymore. You can also start to tell your friends the same thing without them asking.

And if your Fiancee wants to talk about the baby, let him. Let him be excited about it and tell his friends. Maybe it would actually help him to talk to his married friends about the situation. Maybe some of you guys' married friends could help keep you guys accountable regarding remaining chaste until you marry in a few months. Sometimes it really helps to have a married friend say " I know it's hard to wait, but it's SO worth while." and to just give you a call and say "How are you doing in that area? Are things ok? Are you holding strong and not faltering?"

Lindsey, I wasn't implying that the pastor is the ruling factor, necessarily. I'm sure the church has deacons and policies that have been agreed on for all sorts of situations. I would think that most churches do. Some churches are more legalistic and some are more liberal. (Personally, I kind of think a church does well with the pastor not being "the man", but with several men leading. That way there is sort of a checks and balances type of thing going on.)

It sounds like you have a wise fiance and I know the Lord will lead you both through this.