Been here before, but trying again..lying...

[~Tara~]

Sub title:
What to do when you can't prove someone's lying?



Having a time here with my boys. It's not happening ALL the time or anything, but something comes up frequently enough that we are faced with this same dilemma and I don't know what to do.

I cannot prove that any of them did or didn't do something. Yet, it's obvious someone DID do something.

What do you do?

For instance...who nibbled the tops off the muffins? Everyone says "not me"

Who stuck their finger in the butter?
"not me"

Argh! SOMEbody did it. All I want to know is WHO. And they have been told time and time again, the consequences are less severe, often times nothing but a warning, if they just confess. However if you are *caught* lying, that's when the wrath ensues. Always telling them that it is ALWAYS better to tell the truth.

Yet...we still can't get someone to fess up.

What do ya do?

[Madre]

I think sometimes you can wait and pray and somehow the Lord brings it up again and makes it clear. No one really gets away with anything, ya know. ;) Our sin does find us out. (Nu. 32:23)

There is also an article on the main site that may be helpful:

http://www.christian-mommies.com/ageless/handle-emotions/dealing-with-lying-the-dos-and-donts/

[breezykc2]

we always went with the "then everyone will suffer" scenario....usually the rest will rat the little liar out due to not wanting to lose their perks or be punished....and make everyone lose thier most prized possesion/special game or tv time/whatever carries weight with them to make it work....even if they won't "rat" the one out...you'll probably notice which kiddo is being snubbed by a majority of the others...
Then, proceed with adressing it with the specific child more if necessary....
Also, point out that if they DO know who did it and even if it isn't them and they don't tell you who did when you ask...they are lying too and deserve the punishment they get simply from that....
Good luck!

[cjropher]

I'm going through that too. Not so much in a group scenario yet, but my oldest is coming up with some stories that could have happened, but I'm doubtful that they did.

Here's the latest, he had a little bruise by his eye that we noticed on Sunday morning. So I was checking it out and asked what happened. He told me he was punched at school. Seeing as this is Sunday, I find it hard to believe that my little tattler didn't tell us this beforehand! So I start questioning him. The story gets more and more bizarre, well maybe I didn't get punched, I don't remember. To clarify, I made sure he knew what a punch was, etc. It was almost so obvious a lie but still, it could have happened. Finally his story contradicted himself so many times that I knew he was lying. But even then, it was like he didn't get what the lie was. It seems that someone had bumped into him at school and that turned into a punch or something. I'm still confused about the whole thing.

We warn him that the consequences of lying will be worse than whatever he is lying about when he's trying to get out of trouble, but like you, when I don't really know what happened, it's really hard to get through to them. What I hate the most is that the trust is gone. He tells me something and I don't know whether to believe him or not. I've explained this to him, that I can no longer trust him to tell the truth because he's shown that he's not honest, but at 5, it doesn't seem to really sink in. Though he does hate it when I question everything he says because as I've told him, I just can't believe him. Especially when it means his younger brother doesn't get in trouble because I don't know if J is telling the truth! LOL

Sorry, Tara, no advice on this end. Hoping some of the ladies will have some for me too!

[~Tara~]

I don't believe in punishing all for the sins of one. I have been tempted to do so because we weren't getting the truth any other way, it seemed like the only option left, ya know? But hub nixed that idea completely. Which is a whole other issue. We have never disagreed on how to handle something. We've been right in line and keep each other in check. We're a good team. But the last time this happened we were not getting the truth from the culprit. The others were innocent and knew nothing of the incident. If they know, they WILL rat. But the rat, even at that point, still will not admit/confess (one in particular is an extreme hold out!). Anyway, the last time we had an incident and we got no confession I suggested they all be punished. Hub wouldn't have any part of it. And like I said, that's not the route I want to go either, but I felt we were left with no other choice. We could not *prove* who did it. No one saw anything. But hub refused to punish all. So now I also wonder if that showed a divide, ya know? Now the culprit feels he can further get away with things because mom and dad don't have a plan.

And the other kicker is when it's over some little issue. Something 'silly' happens, I just want to know WHO did it so I can tell them to please not do that. Not worthy of a spanking or anything, just a 'don't do that'. But they make it into a big issue by lying. Argh! So then, when one is lying, you have to carry through, right? Otherwise the culprit gets off on both accounts.
*sigh*
I just don't get it and I can't figure out how to break it.

It's my 6 yr old that is causing all the strife. The Eldest fesses up when confronted. The 8 yr old ... he's iffy .. he's my verb parser .. "Who ate the cake" or "who ate the icing off the cake" he will not confess..he will sit there with the chocolate on his lips, but he will not confess. Hub will continue to rephrase the question, then finally the 8 yr old will say..that he did not 'eat' the cake, nor did he 'eat' the icing..he scraped his finger in the icing and then licked it off. :rolling eyes: Yeah, he's a doozy! And yes, he KNOWS what he's doing, I am certain!!

But it's the 6 yr old (and sometimes the 4 yr old) who will deny to the death. They have been reminded what a lie is and that it will not be tolerated. As well as consequences being worse when their lie is busted, but drastically reduced, if they receive anything at all (depends on the offense) if they tell the truth the first time. It's always better to tell the truth the FIRST time you are asked.

But this 6 yr old, oh boy, he just keeps on going. The other boys could have seen him and as I said, WILL rat him out, he will STILL deny it.

He has been punished before on the word of the other boys. But I prefer to know for myself, kwim? I would prefer to see it myself and for him to confess. But if the word of 2 brothers is what I have, then I'll take it.

However, even that isn't always the case. Like last time. They didn't see a thing. The 6 and 4 yr old were the only possible culprits. Both deny. The 4 yr old is now to the point where she will begin to get upset after a while. We know if she did it or not. But that 6 yr old will NOT give. Ugh! But I still can't 'prove' it.

Ok, rambling...

Anyway, that's my dilemma *sigh*

[Mo2b1d]

Having a time here with my boys. It's not happening ALL the time or anything, but something comes up frequently enough that we are faced with this same dilemma and I don't know what to do.

I cannot prove that any of them did or didn't do something. Yet, it's obvious someone DID do something.

What do you do?

For instance...who nibbled the tops off the muffins? Everyone says "not me"

Who stuck their finger in the butter?
"not me"

Argh! SOMEbody did it. All I want to know is WHO. And they have been told time and time again, the consequences are less severe, often times nothing but a warning, if they just confess. However if you are *caught* lying, that's when the wrath ensues. Always telling them that it is ALWAYS better to tell the truth.

Yet...we still can't get someone to fess up.

What do ya do?

As long as your situations where you're asking someone if they did this or that are small, like how you described: Nibbling tops off of muffins or sticking fingers in the butter... then I'd suggest you move away from asking who did it. You see, they're not lying until you ask them and they say "not me". So in a sense you'd be saving them from making a really bad choice and choosing to lie.

Instead, I think it would make more sense to say something like this: "Kids, you all know you're not supposed to be putting your fingers in the butter or nibbling the tops off of the muffins. If you do it again, then you'll all have to do "XYZ". Then, you'd just have to sit back and wait for the un-guilty ones to protest because they really didn't do it, and the guilty one would probably be sitting there pretty quiet...and you'd know who to take aside later on and discuss the matter with.

I think though, if you make it a blanket statement where you address them all and say...you know you're not supposed to do XYZ, and even if you can't figure out who did it, to sit down and discuss why they're all not allowed to do XYZ, that you'll ferret out the offender without creating a situation where they feel tempted to lie about it. Because you may not have to make them publicly admit doing XYZ to get them to stop doing it again or to hear why you don't want them to do XYZ and to stop.

ETA: I just saw your last post, and you wouldn't have to punish them all, but you might need to talk to them all about why you didn't want them to do XYZ...and then I think is where you'd figure out who the real offender was...

[Madre]

As long as your situations where you're asking someone if they did this or that are small, like how you described: Nibbling tops off of muffins or sticking fingers in the butter... then I'd suggest you move away from asking who did it. You see, they're not lying until you ask them and they say "not me". So in a sense you'd be saving them from making a really bad choice and choosing to lie.

Really good point!

[~Tara~]

Ok, so, say child 3 is the offender..we all 'know' it but can't prove it.
Mom and dad call them all in, and we go over "someone did such n such, now we know that isn't the right thing to do..whoever is doing it needs to STOP, period." elaborating a bit about it's not nice or sanitary or whatever fits the bill.

Now then...what would be an appropriate consequence?

Let them know, as suggested above, if this happens again you will all have to .... what would I put in that blank?

This kind of 'punishment for all' I can handle better than something harsh like a spanking, which is our standard consequence for lying. Spanking all because *one* lied is not my preferred method, but some other 'consequence' might work...physical labor kind of thing perhaps ??

Ideas there?

[breezykc2]

We were never spanked ever...but lost priveleges and had special chores....we lived on a farm, so Mom could always find "fun" jobs to horrify us with..."mucking out" anything was usually a good one! LOL

[Mo2b1d]

Ok, so, say child 3 is the offender..we all 'know' it but can't prove it.
Mom and dad call them all in, and we go over "someone did such n such, now we know that isn't the right thing to do..whoever is doing it needs to STOP, period." elaborating a bit about it's not nice or sanitary or whatever fits the bill.

Now then...what would be an appropriate consequence?

Let them know, as suggested above, if this happens again you will all have to .... what would I put in that blank?

This kind of 'punishment for all' I can handle better than something harsh like a spanking, which is our standard consequence for lying. Spanking all because *one* lied is not my preferred method, but some other 'consequence' might work...physical labor kind of thing perhaps ??

Ideas there? Well, you may not really even need a punisment. For those small things that you wouldn't punish for anyway, you could just line them all up on the sofa next to each other and give them all the talk that you wanted to give to the offender about why you don't do XYZ.

I'd bet that if you stop them all from what they're doing, and take them all into another room and have them sit down and pay attention to you while you give them ALL the discussion that you had intended for the one, that 2 things would happen: #1, the offender would hear the msg and not be tempted to lie. #2 the non-offenders may protest so loudly that you really know who the real offender is and you can pay special attention to that child and give extra explanation to that one child throughout the day without ever letting on that you're positive they did it.

Eventually they'll all learn to admit it when they've done something wrong. Those early years are tough ones because they don't want you to know that they failed and they don't want to disappoint you...or to get in trouble either, LOL. But you want them to have a change of heart, and not just admit it out of fear of greater punishment.

Oh, and for minor offences that are related to food, the "punishment" could just be that you put the muffins up on top of the fridge and the kids have to ask before they can have any. It's not a punishment per say, but it would create a situation that inconveniences them a little by not being able to get their own snack when they wanted it...we moms are busy, and can't always get stuff right at the second they ask for it.

[justmeNmine]

I have had similar situations with treats we have made, cookies that were colling, etc. and I do just put them away until later, or if it is later, say in the evening, until the next day. I might say something like, "I see someone has already helped themself to the cookies so we shouldn't eat any more of those 'til tomorrow. My ds is usualy the culprit as dd is just 2, but in the case that he sneaks one, he gets one for her too. My dd is famous for touching, licking, putting her finge rin th ebutter to taste it, so I just keep it out of her reach. They both know how to move a chair to climb up to the pantry to get a snack, (a favorite for while I am in the shower, if they happen to make it downstairs) and if they do, I take it, put it back and remind them that kids are not to just help themselves. With more serious lies (for example my ds is for some reason fond of removing light bulbs!?!) I basically just let him know that I logically know he is not telling the truth to say he didn't do it, or to try and spin a tale as to why he did do it (the people from China were involved the last time, rolling my eyes) I just follow through on the consequence, such as removing his reading lamp from his room for the night. There was an even more serious situation involving my great neice and a burnt (on a light bulb) stuffed animal (where is that smiley with his eyes bulging out), in which both he and she lied, and I have not allowed her to come over for quite some time (that was around Christmas). I felt it had to be an extreme consequence when the lie rose from annoying to outright dangerous. Just the other day, my ds brought it up that she had not come to visit in a long time and that if she did, he would always tell the truth about stuff. I said it sounded like he was ready to have her come back over, but that I would have to talk to her and be sure that she also wanted to visit and tell the truth. I think distinguishing between lies that are small and annoying and those that involve danger or outright disobedience/breaking of house rules is important and like Mo2b1d (I thin I got that right:)) pointed out, in the case of the small ones, not giving the opportunity to tell a lie, but rather acting on what we know to be true migth be the best bet, which mught be as simple as reviewing the rules.

[~Tara~]

Ha. See, um, here's the thing..just commenting on your last tid-bit there (referring to Mo2b1d...andrea and I were simultaneously posting ;) )...they are already not allowed to freely help themselves to snacks. Muffins are generally put up in the microwave. And I often have a bag of my chocolate on a high shelf in the pantry.

They will sneak it. Or, rather, primarily this ONE, will sneak it. The muffins can happen in the morning before I am out in the living area/kitchen. The candy stealing can happen while I'm cleaning my bathroom. He will just stuff it in his pocket until he has time alone to unwrap it. But then he leaves the wrapper on the floor and a brother busts him ;) And smells the chocolate on his breath.

The chocolate now resides in MY room.

But for everything else, well, ya know..what can ya do?

(and just to clarify, wasn't saying the above to be snarky or difficult..it just made me giggle, honestly..'keep it out of reach' 'uh, yeah, tried that' hehe)

This is really one of those situations where I feel I am coming across as really difficult. I really don't mean to. I'm honestly taking in everything I'm reading, going over it and just sharing what we have tried thus far.

But are you seeing my dilemma here? In feeling like I've tried 'everything' to no avail?

I'll try the group talk thing and hope that after a few attempts that will kick in. I'm just having a hard time seeing how something so 'subtle' is going to work with this one. (the child)

[justmeNmine]

hehehe, didn't take you as snarky but they do get to that point where "out of reach" would have to be reeeally far away :) You could have them watch Pinocchio, hehehe :)

No, seriously, I think the group talking might be good, or maybe if there is something the culprit doens't like as well as muffin tops, give him (or all of 'em) that instead? I have declared a bag of snacks "ruined" before and "got rid of it" because it had been torn open, ripped into, when I wasn't looking. The consequence of not having the so-seriously-desired snack seemed to work. With candy, when my ds snuck some, I gave his sister one and nto him, as he had already had his after all.

[gamommyto4girls]

Ooooh, good thread and some great advice. I like the idea of the group talk and the other point made about careful phrasing so as not to back a child into lying. I often resort to the 'all will suffer' way of dealing with things, but understand there are other ways to try and tackle this one and certainly agree that both spouses would need to united or it's a no-go.

I personally can't stand food fights, no not just the literal ones, lol. In my family growing up we argued about dividing favorite cereals, popsicles, and cookies. It got insane and my mom didn't ever intervene. We would count each others meals and snacks ad-nauseum. I really detest this behavior and have tried hard to outlaw in our house. I've made it clear to my girls for instance that if I here them arguring about who had more cookies, etc. The offending items will not be replenished. Since dh and I are not sweet eaters at all, no biggie to us. We've had recent issues with gum and all gum has been banned for a while. Just wondering if the threat of removing sweets and snacks would curb some of this behavior. Of course this wouldn't help with non-food issues though.

[~Tara~]

Yeah we rarely have sweets around here. I mean, I have 'mine', my little stash of chocolate or something, but for the *most* part, that is not messed with. Just recently has the 6 yr old 'tried' that. They've all been there. I just deal with it and we go on. But this little booger just keeps on, one thing after another :p

I can see though that we need to work on not putting the child into a position to lie. That's where we've gone wrong thus far. I'll work on changing that.

[Mo2b1d]

Ha. See, um, here's the thing..just commenting on your last tid-bit there (referring to Mo2b1d...andrea and I were simultaneously posting ;) )...they are already not allowed to freely help themselves to snacks. Muffins are generally put up in the microwave. And I often have a bag of my chocolate on a high shelf in the pantry.

They will sneak it. Or, rather, primarily this ONE, will sneak it. The muffins can happen in the morning before I am out in the living area/kitchen. The candy stealing can happen while I'm cleaning my bathroom. He will just stuff it in his pocket until he has time alone to unwrap it. But then he leaves the wrapper on the floor and a brother busts him ;) And smells the chocolate on his breath.

The chocolate now resides in MY room.

But for everything else, well, ya know..what can ya do?

(and just to clarify, wasn't saying the above to be snarky or difficult..it just made me giggle, honestly..'keep it out of reach' 'uh, yeah, tried that' hehe)

This is really one of those situations where I feel I am coming across as really difficult. I really don't mean to. I'm honestly taking in everything I'm reading, going over it and just sharing what we have tried thus far.

But are you seeing my dilemma here? In feeling like I've tried 'everything' to no avail?

I'll try the group talk thing and hope that after a few attempts that will kick in. I'm just having a hard time seeing how something so 'subtle' is going to work with this one. (the child)
I see what you mean...if its already put really far away, then what do you do?

I guess, maybe you could go the opposite way with it then. When I was really sick during my pregnancy with DS#2, I made up an ice cream bucket of snacks like boxes of raisins and crackers and cereal bars and bananas that DS#1 could feed himself that I didn't have to help with and that he didn't ever have to ask for. I also set up a shelf in the fridge with fruit cups and pudding cups and yogurt cups and baby carrots and put spoons within reach for him. All of those healthy snacks were for him to eat whenever he needed one between meals. Things like candy got hidden well, and were off limits.

So anyway, maybe you could set up a place with tons of healthy snacks for the kids, and change the rules up on them. Allow them to have those particular snacks without asking as long as they eat them at the table.

Anyway, I'm wondering if a little reverse psychology might help them stop eating the things you're saving for a particular reason. You know...all "this" is ok to get without asking whenever you're hungry, but XYZ is for after dinner when Daddy comes home. Then, if they do get into XYZ, you can say that whatever is left is for Daddy, and that since they already had theirs, they don't get any later like a pp said above. The ones who didn't have any will let you know, and the offender will probably be pretty obvious, so you'll be able to limit the "no dessert or whatever" to that kid.

[gamommyto4girls]

Oh, guessing you may well have tried this but we've had some success with pulling out the Bible. The idea of course is that these aren't just Mom and Dad's rules, they are really God's rules. We read the pertinent commandment or other scripture(KJV is particularly impressive in our house) and then chat a bit. Sometimes that gets our little consciences working. We've so been there lately with one of ours in particular too, the first two kiddos were/are just so gosh darn obediant that I'm often at a loss with number three. They spoiled me!

[cjropher]

There is always the story of Aninias and Saphira! I read it to ds out of a children's Bible. Hard one though, I don't really want him looking over his shoulder all his life afraid that God might strike him dead for the littlest thing. However, lying is terrible. It destroys so much and looks so innocent. I just don't want it to happen! LOL I totally understand why God hates lying so much.

As for punishing everyone, it depends. Define punish. I wouldn't spank all my kids if one wouldn't tell the truth. Actually, I did try that once but then the offender did tell the truth and the other couldn't understand why he got punished. It just didn't make sense to them at all. But what if in the case of muffins, then none of them get any. Lying affects so much, that the consequence isn't only to the offender but others. Because you can't trust someone, then it means that the treat is gone. They might not know the offender and say so in complete honesty, but explain that when you can't trust someone, then it affects everything. As you don't know who you can't trust, you can't trust any of them maybe.

Saying that, as I said, I've had no real luck getting through to J either. But I have read (never tried) that kids need to be able to keep their dignity. To allow them to come to terms on their own instead of us over them making them tell the truth. So allow the offender to come to you in private, saying something like, "if anyone has anything to tell me about this, let me know." and leave it at that. I haven't tried this, as I don't know if I fully understand the concept and agree with it.

[Mo2b1d]

To allow them to come to terms on their own instead of us over them making them tell the truth. So allow the offender to come to you in private, saying something like, "if anyone has anything to tell me about this, let me know." and leave it at that. I haven't tried this, as I don't know if I fully understand the concept and agree with it. I would think that's based on 2 different concepts.

#1. That its easier for the child to be honest (at first when they're learning how not to lie) when they have the option of telling the truth in privacy without their brothers/sisters/whoever else is there knowing about their sin. So instead of teaching the child about admitting their sins AND facing humiliation from their siblins (because they know little Jimmy sinned, which is a big deal), you're teaching one thing at a time, by starting with just the admission of whatever bad thing they did. Not being afraid to admit those things in public can come later, because its the heart that should concern us the most.

#2 By allowing your child to come to you later and admit a wrongdoing, you're giving them the time to really think about it and ponder it and you're giving the Holy Spirit time to work on their hearts and convict them of their wrongdoing. A forced confession isn't worth much if their heart doesn't really feel they did anything wrong. Even punishment won't effectively bring out a heart change all the time. Sometimes it will just make them more insistent that what they did wasn't very bad compared to the punishment.

The goal for everything when we're teaching our children should be that they realize whatever they were doing is wrong, they know why its wrong, and they have a heart change and repent to God for sinning against Him because they realize it makes God sad when we do bad things. Not just that they agree not to do it again because it invoked a punishment from us.

[Timmys mom]

Okay, ideas for "punishment" for all of them...

cleaning up a room thats messy.
not watching television that night
no dessert after dinner
(if it's at night and close to bed time, you might just send them to bed early)
folding clothes