So, I posted a prayer request in the PR section yesterday about my friend with 4 children and 1 on-the-way w/high blood pressure issues. Anyway, I've been thinking about her and praying for her quite a bit over the last 24 hours. I think that some of what her anxiety may come from is how she (and her dh) is raising her kids.

Let me say this first: I do not like others telling me how I should raise my kids and therefore I don't give out my opinion unless I'm asked for it. I know there are many different theories on raising kids and I respect everyone's own personal method even though I may not agree with it.

That being said, is there any time or situation that you feel like you should say something, even if you haven't been asked??

I go to this family's house to teach their three older children piano lessons. So, I'm there for about 1.5 - 2 hours a week. This is not a lot of time to observe their family rules/discipline style/etc, but it is enough to get a glimpse on how they parent. They watch ds 2 afternoons a week in exchange for piano lessons. I also know that life happens and obviously there is TONS of time that I am not there...

What I have observed is 1) that their kids don't obey their family 'rules' and they are not punished for it. For instance the youngest is about 2.5 and runs around like a terror. He washes his hair in the toilet, he open the front door and runs around outside in his diaper in the dead of winter, he spills food all over the floor on purpose and the list goes on and on. And 2) none of the kids have chores/responsibilites around the house. So, this poor mom is doing all the laundry, dishes, cleaning. The kids don't even know how to clean their rooms.

Another side note: I only have one child. Maybe I shouldn't even be thinking like this. But I was the oldest of 4 kids and these things didn't happen in my house....I don't know....

So, I guess I'm asking, what would you do in this situation? Would you say something or not? I even feel like if I go over there to help her (which I've offered to do), it would be like I'm 'feeding her for a day' and not 'teaching her how to fish' if you KWIM.

I'm asking out of love for her and her family, not for any other reason.

Thanks!

Any chance there are good, short term parenting classes in the area, and you could approach it this way: "Hey, xyz, I am thinking of attending this class... it's 4 weeks long, do you want to come with? We can make child care arrangements together. I'd rather not go alone!"

Maybe that is sneaky, along the lines of asking a chubby friend if she wants to be your walking partner, because you're worried about her health. But I would personally find that easier than putting on Supper Nanny garb and attempting a full out rescue.

I don't know, hon... I know you care about your friend, but I'd have to go with what you said earlier in your post; don't say anything unless she asks for advice or draws you into her drama. If she tries to unload some of her burden on you by talking about it, you can very gently, and totally respectfully, offer advice in such as way that you acknowledge that only she and her hubby could possibly know what's best for their own family.

God has an ingenious way of allowing our life circumstances to bring us to the point of *wanting* change and actually humbling ourselves enough to seek Him for a better way. Sometimes that means asking others for help. If she isn't there yet, you just need to stand back and pray for her. That's what good friends do. You're a good friend to care about her the way you do.

Love you!

Joy [welcomewave]

Any chance there are good, short term parenting classes in the area, and you could approach it this way: "Hey, xyz, I am thinking of attending this class... it's 4 weeks long, do you want to come with? We can make child care arrangements together. I'd rather not go alone!"

Maybe that is sneaky, along the lines of asking a chubby friend if she wants to be your walking partner, because you're worried about her health. But I would personally find that easier than putting on Supper Nanny garb and attempting a full out rescue.

I'll have to look into that - good thought.

I guess the reason I'm struggling is I don't want to be trying to remove her 'speck' when I most surely have a 'plank' in my life. Ya know? They are a wonderful Christian family and they homeschool. I just feel torn inside.

I don't know, hon... I know you care about your friend, but I'd have to go with what you said earlier in your post; don't say anything unless she asks for advice or draws you into her drama. If she tries to unload some of her burden on you by talking about it, you can very gently, and totally respectfully, offer advice in such as way that you acknowledge that only she and her hubby could possibly know what's best for their own family.

God has an ingenious way of allowing our life circumstances to bring us to the point of *wanting* change and actually humbling ourselves enough to seek Him for a better way. Sometimes that means asking others for help. If she isn't there yet, you just need to stand back and pray for her. That's what good friends do. You're a good friend to care about her the way you do.

Love you!

Joy [welcomewave]

Thanks, Joy. She has 'unloaded' on me - we talk on the phone once or twice a week. She's always telling me "another crazy story" about her family. Is that her way of asking for help? I'm not sure...

Okay, then I'd go back to this, Kate:

'you can very gently, and totally respectfully, offer advice in such a way that you acknowledge that only she and her hubby could possibly know what's best for their own family'.

You're trying to preserve and protect a friendship here, too. As you say, we all have a huge ol' plank in our own eye (gets in the way of seeing others clearly), and we have absolutely no idea where anyone else is in their walk with the Lord, or what He's currently working on in them. It literally may not be *His* timing, in which case, anyone who steps in like they know what's best for her would be the one in the wrong. Only God knows.

Side note: If you're feeling at all frustrated with what's going on in her family, it may be time to firm up your boundary between her and you. That happens in your own life, between you and the Lord (releasing her to Him). I've SOOOO been there, getting too wrapped up in what appears to be the bad choices of other people. We have no control over what other people do, and as I said earlier, we don't even know what God's doing in their lives. It may not be time for them to hear a particular message.


ETA, if it *is* God's timing for things to change in your friend's life, *He'll* get her there, one way or another. This brings us back to, if He's calling you to speak, do so very humbly, in order to protect your relationship. The fewer words, the better. You don't want to come across like you've been giving her life a lot of thought and have come up with the perfect plan. LOL!!!

[loveyou]

Joy [welcomewave]

ah man, yeah, I have a similar situation

the thing here is hub does most of the talking
she and I are friends and all, but hubs are much closer
and whenever we have had an issue with one of their children (just had a discussion about this on another board..weird...)hub was the one to talk to the other dad/hub

I, too, have endured story after story of 'what so n so has done this time' and I just stand there thinking..uh..hello? STOP it. Really. It can't be that difficult. He does X you do Y. Ta-da! Or 'uh, a little supervision goes a LOOOOONG way' stuff like that. I have never said those things, mind you, that's just where my thoughts go. Like you said..hate to burst out with unsolicited advice and knowing full well while you may see their speck you likely have your own plank that needs removed. TOTALLY understand that one! We have never claimed to be perfect and have it all together. But so many times we look at this family and are just agast (is there an h in that?)

Anyway...it IS hard to determine at what point that other person is 'asking' for help. I can't help ya there. Again, this one goes to hub. He has all 'those' conversations with the friend. It was not too long ago that friend really confided in hub that the aforementioned son of theirs had gotten out of hand and he just didn't know what to do. He didn't understand how/why this last particular episode of his had happened. He was just at a loss. Hub took that one as a plea for help. More than just an understanding and a general chat about how to handle little things..but this was like a real *plea*. So hub gently offered more specific, structured advice.

But just what that 'plea' sounds like? I really don't know. I'm sure it's nothing I could really express to you anyway. It's something you as the close friend would have to judge on your own.

The best I can offer is when she comes to you saying so n so did X again..you chuckle along with her for a second and then say something like 'sounds like he needs....' fill in the blank with what you think would be an appropriate consequence for such. This is even better when you have one of the same age (or have had) and you can say "Aah, yeah, I remember when mine tried that, the first time, he was reprimanded for it, the second time....I think he only had to endure that one more time before he got the idea ;)" fill in the blank accordingly. I've done that several times. Sometimes it was greeted with 'yeah I tried that but then...' Sometimes I have another option to offer, other times, I don't. Then I'll just say something like "ouch, a difficult one huh?" See how much conversation opens itself..if maybe this is a bit of a plea for help. Maybe at that point you could bounce some ideas back and forth. Maybe even if not about *that* issue but about others..just opening a general conversation about behaviors and discipline/consequences. More of a 'pow-wow' session than an "I'm teaching *you*" session KWIM?

I also like Rachel's idea of 'sneaking' it in.

And as Joy said...just pray for her. It's a BIG step to admit you've done something wrong..I think even more so when we're talking parental issues. You just need to pray that she can see something is NOT working, that she doesn't have the tools to fix this..and maybe you are the one she will turn to for guidance. Just pray that she can see the big errors before things get too out of hand, while things are still correctable. And that you are there for her if/when she needs you. It may not be you that she turns to. And that's ok...just so long as she turns to someone for the help she needs..when she's 'there'..when she's ready.

That's what we had to do with our friends. We saw this coming years ago. This one son of theirs. We *knew* there was going to be trouble if they didn't get a handle on things. Well, trouble has begun. And now they see. Now they have a hard road ahead of them to correct. And hopefully they will continue to be open to our suggestions..wherever we can offer them. In our 'less than expert' experience, of course. :)

Just a thought, I understood from your post that they watch your ds for 2 afternoons a week. If you really think their parenting style is dangerous, then is a great idea to leave your ds there? Maybe I misunderstood, but if you are willing to trust her to watch your child then you probably shouldn't say anything about how they are raising their family. She will most likely bring up the fact that they watch your son and it won't give you much standing. If I misunderstood, that's fine, I just hadn't seen this angle brought out yet.:-D