K...here's the sitch:

My son freaked out in children's church this fall....and i mean totally freaked, almost hyperventilating, can't calm down freaked out. The children's pastor who is the teacher (a man) came and got me and I helped him calm down.

DS was 4 at the time. At the time, DS had a kind of cryptic explanation that he didn't like the snack and needed me. That didn't make sense to me at the time, because I didn't think that warranted a total freak out. I kind of figured he was going through a developmental stage where maybe he was feeling a little insecure around strangers...there was a new teacher... I thought it was a fluke. But it wasn't. The next week, I went to drop him off, and he wouldn't let me leave. So I stayed in the class. Same thing happened the next week.

After that, we stopped pushing him to go, and let him stay with us in the main service instead. It's been months now, and I've tried to discuss it with him over and over, and I get either the same answer as above..the snack was one he'd never had before and he just needed me, or he'll say that he doesn't like having to do things the way the teacher says because he wanted to play....which didn't make sense, because we've explained that at sunday school, its a time where you do what the other kids are doing and follow the teacher's direction, and join in...he knows that.

So anyway, fast forward to yesterday. My little sister's baby was being dedicated at her church, so we were there instead of at our church. He has a friend in the children's church class, so I asked him if he wanted to go. He said yes. I waited all service for him to freak out and want to come to me, but he didn't. He loved the class and thought it was awesome. On the way home though, I talked to him about how he had such a fun time, and asked him if he was ready to go back to sunday school at our church, and he said NO. He still says he doesn't like that class, and doesn't want to go back ever again. I naturally told him that I won't make him go back, because honestly, I feel a check, that I shouldn't be making him go there, that something is WRONG.

So anyway, I feel really horrible now, because up to this point, I had that check, but I always kind of thought it was just my kid you know? But now, I see that he can go to a COMPLETELY foreign environment at a church he doesn't really know with complete strangers teaching the class and do great...so its not my kid.

I am really wondering about this situation now...I wonder what happened in children's church at our church. The teacher said he just started freaking out at snack time. But in the back of my head, there is this BIG check, that something's not right, and it makes me wonder about the teacher. I feel really guilty about that because he's the children's pastor at the church, but I have a really weird feeling when I'm around him and I talk to him...I can't place it...but its weird...

So anyway, I'm obviously not comfortable with either child being in Sunday school there now, and I don't have any concrete facts that I can see, I just know we shouldn't put them in Sunday School.

Do you think I should try to discuss this with the head pastor's wife and see if she has any insight into the situation? Or should i just let it go and just politely decline when the kids get asked to go to Sunday school? I'm just so unsure how to tackle the problem, because the thing that's wrong could be anything from DS just not being comfortable with the personality of the teacher or one of his helpers, to the teacher being too strict/punitive (DS is really sensitive, so some of that could really scare him) to something really bad...but my son just can't put it into words why he is scared to go there..

Any suggestions?

When you attended class what didn't seem right?

Since he had a friend to go with to class, I'm not sure I would chalk that up to a foreign environment. You mention nothing of friends at your church. Perhaps it is more of a problem with another child in the class than necessarily the Pastor.

Is there a reason why you mentioned he was a man? Wouldn't think that would make a difference. Anyways, have you actually shared your concerns with the Children's Pastor first? If you haven't, you at least owe him that before talking with the Pastor's wife (and I don't mean just asking him what happened with your child but honestly laying out your feelings with him).

When you attended class what didn't seem right?

Since he had a friend to go with to class, I'm not sure I would chalk that up to a foreign environment. You mention nothing of friends at your church. Perhaps it is more of a problem with another child in the class than necessarily the Pastor.

Is there a reason why you mentioned he was a man? Wouldn't think that would make a difference. Anyways, have you actually shared your concerns with the Children's Pastor first? If you haven't, you at least owe him that before talking with the Pastor's wife (and I don't mean just asking him what happened with your child but honestly laying out your feelings with him).

I can't put my finger on what didn't seem right...you know, when you meet someone new, and sometimes you just get that feeling...not sure what it is, but something just doesn't feel right? I've prayed about it, and haven't gotten a clear answer, just that feeling that I should NOT send him to class....though I don't know if that's just for now, IYKWIM.

The problem isn't with other kids in the class. He has lots of friends, and plays great with all of them. You can see that he's very comfortable with the kids in the class when I've visited, but for some reason, not with the teacher. Even if another kid had been mean to him, I don't think it would stop him. He'd just ignore it or forgive it from another kid.

The reason I mentioned it was a man, was that for awhile, DH and I were mulling the sitch around in conversation and were wondering if it was just a sitch where DS wasn't comfortable with another man (other than daddy) giving him direction since men are usually much more matter of fact, and blunt than women, and I'd heard the male teacher really being strict with what most people would consider to be normal 4 year old behaviors...you know, like getting antsy during the teacher's story because it was a little longer than most of them could pay attention to. DH's dad is a teacher, and we were talking about a study that had been done in like the 80's where they found that really young elementary students did better with a female teacher until they were like 4th grade age because they were more comfortable with a woman because kids viewed all women as possibly being moms, but not all men were dads, if that makes sense.

I would still consider the sitch at my sis's church a foreign environment for him, because he's more likely to be scared of a new adult than a bunch of new kids. He could make friends with a post if he tried. If its another kid, he'll walk right up to a complete stranger and make friends.

I have talked to the children's pastor about the problem, but up to this point, we've been centered on how to get DS back in class. We even had considered me becoming one of the helpers to ease his transition, but due to our schedule, I couldn't do that right now.

The reason I mentioned talking to the head pastor's wife, is because I know her, and thought maybe she'd have some insight into what could be wrong because she was in charge of the children's church program up until the point the new children's pastor took over. She knows all the helpers, and is still involved in children's church every Sunday as well. I figured she'd have better insight into the whole situation, and I also wouldn't have to make the children's pastor feel bad since I am positive now that the problem isn't with my kid, but it lies elsewhere. This isn't necessarily his fault, but I don't want him to think that I think he's the problem, KWIM?

The reason I mentioned talking to the head pastor's wife, is because I know her, and thought maybe she'd have some insight into what could be wrong because she was in charge of the children's church program up until the point the new children's pastor took over. She knows all the helpers, and is still involved in children's church every Sunday as well. I figured she'd have better insight into the whole situation, and I also wouldn't have to make the children's pastor feel bad since I am positive now that the problem isn't with my kid, but it lies elsewhere. This isn't necessarily his fault, but I don't want him to think that I think he's the problem, KWIM?

I understand that. My hubby is a children's pastor and I can tell you over the years the few times we've dealt with issues similar to this the outcome is always been better when those parents came to him first instead of going over his head without at least trying to talk with him. Yes, it might be uncomfortable for both of you, but I feel you at least owe him that.

As for preschoolers and younger elementary children preferring females, in all of my children's ministries/school years I've never encountered that. Most children flock to a male in the room because most have absent fathers (either because dad works a lot or is out of the picture).

Never dismiss your feelings that something just isn't "right"...be safe, not sorry! I think I just wouldn't push it and would simply keep him out of the class ...if you have another friend with a child in the class that you are very close with, maybe discuss how their child enjoys the class and if they feel comfortable with the teacher....(you don't have to go into your "feelings", just feel out the subject with them) If you are very close to the pastor's wife, then yes, speak with her, it sounds like she would have a lot of knowledge of all the workers and the environment and would know the importance of confidentiality as well...
Are there helpers in the class? Or just the one teacher? We mandate having at least TWO people in the room at all times with children at our church and it is a very wise idea...maybe volunteer to help in the class for awhile and check things out yourself? Or have your husband volunteer to help in the class for awhile....Men always have a more authoritative presence if there is an "issue" with the person and reason for your "off feelings"...
You know, it's scary, but churches can be a "hiding" space for people with bad intentions and we don't want to question or ask or think it even, that's why it can be so scary....but with a social service background, these things are best to follow the gut instinct on to protect our child and keep alert...you just can't be too careful. Never feel guilty for questioning the safety of your child and doing what you think is necessary to make sure they are safe....even if it means asking pointed questions to that person or a confidential leader of the church about the situation....I don't think "talking" about the issue with outsiders or others in the church is correct, but sometimes if God is laying something on our heart to check out, we should follow and do so respectfully and quietly, but follow our leads all the same.
just my personal opinion....I just hear it all the time....Mom's and Dad's who say "I wish I would have listened and believed my child" or "I wish I would have listened to that inner nagging voice something was wrong"....only to be too late to save their kids from the trauma they have experienced...

I understand that. My hubby is a children's pastor and I can tell you over the years the few times we've dealt with issues similar to this the outcome is always been better when those parents came to him first instead of going over his head without at least trying to talk with him. Yes, it might be uncomfortable for both of you, but I feel you at least owe him that.


Since that's your hubby's job, how would you suggest going about that talk? I'm sure I'd have DH right there, because I don't think I like the idea of having a personal talk alone with another married man. I don't want to come across like I'm accusing him of anything. All I know, is that "something" is wrong, and that we're fairly positive now that the problem isn't with our son, KWIM...so most people would assume if you say that, that you think the problem is with them...and it might not be....or it could be....who knows... I think DH is more likely to just want to let it go and just not send DS back to Sunday school than discuss what might be wrong in class, so while I know he'd support me and go with me if I wanted to talk, I'm not sure he'd want to discuss the ins and outs and what ifs of the reason for why we're having problems with DS being scared to go back to class there....so I'd probably be doing the talking, if that makes sense.

Would an e-mail from us to him be an appropriate way for us to talk to him about it? Maybe if we just e-mailed him and let him know the latest bit about him doing well in other similar situations, so we're pretty sure that its not a stage, and let him know that DS is still very sure that he doesn't want to go back to class at our church ever, and tell him that we'd like to try to figure out what was wrong so he could go back and start attending again?

I'm not sure what kind of a response I'd get though, because the children's pastor and i have already spoken about the situation and what was going on at the time, and he didn't ever indicate that anything was out of the ordinary.

As far as the whole male teacher thing, that was just a theory in the beginning, something we were mulling over to see if that was the explanation. I think its really sad that you see so many kids that needy for fatherly type affection. Very sad...

Definitely a tricky situation and one that you need to get resolved somehow...

I would suggest speaking to the teacher (in this case the children's pastor if I'm understanding correctly) and sharing with him this new information: the fact that your child went easily to children's church at another congregation. I would also share the various reasons (that you laid out in your post to us) that you think the problem is not with another student but with the instructor. I'm still a bit unclear here- so bear with me please... but I think I'm understanding that you've personally observed the teacher (aka children's pastor) to be a bit strict with the 4 yo kids? If this is the case then I would politely share this opinion with him. I would share that you feel that your child may have been scared or upset by something the teacher said or did that day. You know your child best. You'll know whether or not he's ever exhibited this sort of behavior before. You'll also know whether he tends to follow directions or not and what his typical behavior is like. If as his mother you feel that he typically is calm and not overly frightened and that he generally does not act out- then you can say that in your discussion with the pastor. If you know that your child is particularly easily frightened and/or sometimes is not compliant then you could acknowledge that in your discussion. In short, I would lay everything out on the table and get it aired out, hopefully coming up with a plan of action together.

I personally would not speak with the head pastor's wife. I understand your thoughts behind this, but I don't think it would lead to a solution to the problem itself. You noted that you didn't want the children's pastor to feel that he was the 'problem' but from what you've laid out it seems likely that he is! Unless the head pastor's wife was personally present on that particular day in your son's class I don't think she's personally involved. I honestly would think it better and more productive to speak with the children's pastor personally.

As a side note I ran the preschool ministry for my former church for several years and worked daily with many 3 and 4 year olds. Our pastor at the time was actually a former elementary school principal himself and is a fine christian man. He worked with us one day per week when we had a children's chapel type devotional time. Most students looked forward to this time but some did not. In my experience certain children were less comfortable with a non-family male figure, even though he did nothing to elicit that response. I've chalked it up to the fact that a deeper, louder voice, and a bit more matter of fact attitude can make some children uncomfortable. I don't cast blame on either party. I think that the pastor could make it easier on the children by consciously speaking more softly, making sure to speak at 'eye level' with the children, and making sure that his words, actions, and tones are a bit gentler. On the other hand the child needs to be sure that he's complying with the directions and needs to become comfortable with coping in different situations and taking directions from different adults. These skills will be necessary in the future.

I hope some/any of that helps a bit.

Never dismiss your feelings that something just isn't "right"...be safe, not sorry! I think I just wouldn't push it and would simply keep him out of the class ...if you have another friend with a child in the class that you are very close with, maybe discuss how their child enjoys the class and if they feel comfortable with the teacher....(you don't have to go into your "feelings", just feel out the subject with them) If you are very close to the pastor's wife, then yes, speak with her, it sounds like she would have a lot of knowledge of all the workers and the environment and would know the importance of confidentiality as well...
Are there helpers in the class? Or just the one teacher? We mandate having at least TWO people in the room at all times with children at our church and it is a very wise idea...maybe volunteer to help in the class for awhile and check things out yourself? Or have your husband volunteer to help in the class for awhile....Men always have a more authoritative presence if there is an "issue" with the person and reason for your "off feelings"...
You know, it's scary, but churches can be a "hiding" space for people with bad intentions and we don't want to question or ask or think it even, that's why it can be so scary....but with a social service background, these things are best to follow the gut instinct on to protect our child and keep alert...you just can't be too careful. Never feel guilty for questioning the safety of your child and doing what you think is necessary to make sure they are safe....even if it means asking pointed questions to that person or a confidential leader of the church about the situation....I don't think "talking" about the issue with outsiders or others in the church is correct, but sometimes if God is laying something on our heart to check out, we should follow and do so respectfully and quietly, but follow our leads all the same.
just my personal opinion....I just hear it all the time....Mom's and Dad's who say "I wish I would have listened and believed my child" or "I wish I would have listened to that inner nagging voice something was wrong"....only to be too late to save their kids from the trauma they have experienced...

Thanks so much for responding! We are following our gut instincts to keep him and our other son out of class, but its just such a weird situation, on the one hand, I don't want to believe that anything really is wrong, because its our church, and the children's pastor teaching the class. I don't want to jump to conclusions and automatically think about the worst case scenario, but I have considered it in my head. I feel really guilty that it even came to my mind, but on the last day of class that I attended with DS, there was a sitch where after the children's pastor came up to me after he'd taken the boys to the restroom and made a big deal of informing me about something that had gone on in the restroom so I'd know about it if DS talked about it. He said that one of the boys had shown his "you know" to some of the other boys and said "Look at my "insert correct word here"!" and that our DS was one of the boys who'd seen the boy do that and that the other boy may have used the correct term. At the time, I was a little shocked that the pastor even brought it up, because I know little boys, they're proud of their bodies, and they're little goof balls and like bodily functions and gross stuff at that age. I didn't see it as an issue, and I told him that using the correct name for it was fine, because that's what our kids used, and that I didn't worry about him seeing someone else's "you know", because they were kids, and it wasn't a big deal.

But now, that all comes back to me, and I wonder about that other little boy...you know? Was it just innocent like i thought, or was there more to it and that's why the pastor was mentioning it. See, I thought he was just being overly concerned about normal little boy behavior, and he didn't say it was anything more, and i thought he meant the other little boy was just being goofy.

BTW, thank you all for being a sounding board for me here. This sitch is definitely NOT something I want to discuss with people at the church our even other friends and such, because I don't want folks all coming to their own conclusion...and their could be many different conclusions... Any of those could be a VERY bad rumor, IYKWIM.

Sorry I have no advice other then to "trust your Mom instincts". I never had to worry because my SIL did Children's church. Praying for you in this situation.

I didn't read everyone's reply, but I am a toddler teacher, 2-4.
There is a little boy who I am actually very close to. I tutor him in english during the week. anyhow, He use to come to my class every sunday. and one sunday, he did almost the same thing, he freaked out and di NOT want to come in. It even scared me a little because it was unusual for him to behave that way. His mom, (a dear friend) didn't understand what his deal was, but I said if he was scared or whatever I didn't want him in there because I don't want him to be tramatized or anything. so she took him into the nursery and he was playing in there, (he's 3 BTW) and now he won't come into class even if his mom comes in with him.
So sometimes I think it can be just the kid.
But being a mom myself, I wouldn't ignore my kids behavior. I would probably make them still go in, and then I would check on my child without them knowing it (if possible.)

but on the last day of class that I attended with DS, there was a sitch where after the children's pastor came up to me after he'd taken the boys to the restroom and made a big deal of informing me about something that had gone on in the restroom so I'd know about it if DS talked about it. He said that one of the boys had shown his "you know" to some of the other boys and said "Look at my "insert correct word here"!" and that our DS was one of the boys who'd seen the boy do that and that the other boy may have used the correct term. At the time, I was a little shocked that the pastor even brought it up, because I know little boys, they're proud of their bodies, and they're little goof balls and like bodily functions and gross stuff at that age. I didn't see it as an issue, and I told him that using the correct name for it was fine, because that's what our kids used, and that I didn't worry about him seeing someone else's "you know", because they were kids, and it wasn't a big deal.
We would have informed every parent whose child witnessed that. You might have been okay with it, but I can tell you 1 out of 3 parents would have been horrified.


Since that's your hubby's job, how would you suggest going about that talk?

An email might be a good way to break the ice and open the discussion, but I wouldn't limit the rest of correspondence to just email. It is so hard to discuss issues like this in email. People can read any tone they want to into an email. I would just approach him (or email him) that you now have concerns that this isn't a phase for your son due to the positive environment that he experienced at the other church. That he would be more than happy to attend there again, but still will not attend at your church. So, now you aren't sure what the problems are, but would like to see what they could be, might he have any suggestions.

I echo not talking to the pastor's wife because of the same reasons gamommyto4girls mentioned. If someone isn't physically in that room, you are borderline gossip because they cannot answer your concerns or solve the problem.

Here is a similar situation that we experienced last spring. We had a just five year old boy in our preschool class. He didn't like the class (female teacher) or children's church (hubby teaching). He would throw a fit, they assumed we were the problem. They visited another local church one Sunday with some old friends and their son had a wonderful time in their children's church. So they left our church and started attending the other church. After 2 months there they were having the same problems.
Now, this isn't to say this would hold true for you, because their issue was a parenting problem...or lack of parenting. Their son ran their household. When he was in children's church (anywhere for that matter) he doesn't get to, so he hates. They were honestly bribing him with violent video games to attend, then he would laugh about it all through church that when he got picked up they would buy him X video game.
What happened when they visited the other church was as a visitor he was treated differently (we and most other churches do this too). Visitor gets to be line leader, gets to pick out stuff, gets a prize for visiting, gets the "special seat" in circle time so they want to come back. Can't do that for the same kid week after week, which is why he didn't like the other church either after a time.

But I share this to say that because visitors are treated extra special that makes the kids want to come back, so it could still be a growth/development issue. Also, helping out on a regular basis will give you a better idea of what is honestly going on. When we have "adult visitors" to children's ministries, kids behave differently then they do when those adults are there on a regular - or somewhat regular - basis.

Not to say you should discount any "feelings" but we should never let our "feelings" get the best of us either.

Also wanted to add that kindergarten age is also another development time for insecurity issues with kids....that behavior they sometimes display around 18-24 months, when they don't believe that you are coming back when you leave.....

Not to say you should discount any "feelings" but we should never let our "feelings" get the best of us either.

This is a great point! As women there can be a tendency to go by our instincts and let our feelings dictate our actions. I think there is some truth to instinct, but we need to always go on truth and fact.

The only thing I would add to all of the good advice you have received is to run that advice by your hubby first so he is in on everything you're hearing.

Hi,there! I don't have much advice about children's church as my kids and I haven't been attending in quite some time. I did want to say that I agree with the thought that you ought to make your concerns known; I think you will be able to gauge from the receptiveness/reaction to your thoughts whether there is something truly amiss or wrong with the situation... I don't remember much about being a yungin' in sunday school; i mean I can recall being there, some situations, etc., but no specifics... I will say that when I was a pre-teen and teenager, I had a similar gut feeling about my pastor; I went through some very hard times and found his advice to be quite "off" and as soon as I was out of my parents' house, I stopped attending. Turns out, he had serious problems with pornography and infedility to his wife, so in a way, I wish the people around me hadn't acted liek it was me "being difficult..."

As for the topic of male vs. female teachers, I have noticed with my own two kids (who are fatherless) that although they seem to seek out mael attention, when it iis in the form of authority, even from an uncle or grandfather, it can really shake them up. My 4.5 yo son can become very upset if my dad so much as sternly tells him to do something, and my 2 yo dd's lip will quiver and she will often cry if any of the male family members so much as speak to her (other than in a fun, loving, let's have a good time way). If you are your ds's primary voic eof instruction (and I know that his dad is there), you may be on to something to think abotu those dynamics, especially if the teacher is especially strict/authoritative.

As for the bathroom incident, I think most institutions (schools, churches, etc.) have an obligation to inform parents of things like that; I know at my kids' school, there was an incident similar to what you described, in the locker room and the parents of the kids involved had to be informed even though it wasn't a serious offense/big deal type of thing.
And, kudos for not feeding the rumor mill; best wishes for getting it all out there in the open. One additional thought, would it be possible to socialize with the cp's family and your own sometime, even a quick lunch or something? Would it help your ds to see the teacher in another light besides "the guy that doesn't tolerate wiggling during storytime."

I'll pray for you guys and keep us posted on how it turns out.

As for the topic of male vs. female teachers, I have noticed with my own two kids (who are fatherless) that although they seem to seek out mael attention, when it iis in the form of authority, even from an uncle or grandfather, it can really shake them up. My 4.5 yo son can become very upset if my dad so much as sternly tells him to do something, and my 2 yo dd's lip will quiver and she will often cry if any of the male family members so much as speak to her (other than in a fun, loving, let's have a good time way). If you are your ds's primary voic eof instruction (and I know that his dad is there), you may be on to something to think abotu those dynamics, especially if the teacher is especially strict/authoritative.


Thanks for the suggestion, but it doesn't really apply for us...good thought though. DH is devoted to the boys and is the head of our household. The boys are devoted to him as well. Neither of them has any problems with other male authority figures whatsoever. Dad, Grandpa's, Uncles, Freinds of the Family, in fact, at the other church, it was a husband and wife team who taught the other class. DS came home telling me all about how the wife was a teacher, but the husband was a pastor, so he obviously enjoyed being taught in that setting.

We would have informed every parent whose child witnessed that. You might have been okay with it, but I can tell you 1 out of 3 parents would have been horrified.
REALLY? Wow! I wonder if that was why the teacher made such a big deal about talking to me about it. He seemed a little scared that I would come unglued about it, and I was just like...."ughhhh....ok, what's the big deal, boys are like that..." (In my head of course, LOL...not out loud. Out loud I was just nice and thanked him for telling me, but added that we didn't really feel it was an issue(assuming it was just an innocent action of course).

An email might be a good way to break the ice and open the discussion, but I wouldn't limit the rest of correspondence to just email. It is so hard to discuss issues like this in email. People can read any tone they want to into an email. I would just approach him (or email him) that you now have concerns that this isn't a phase for your son due to the positive environment that he experienced at the other church. That he would be more than happy to attend there again, but still will not attend at your church. So, now you aren't sure what the problems are, but would like to see what they could be, might he have any suggestions. Good idea. Maybe in the time since the original episode, other situations might give a clue. I haven't really spoken to him about this in several months because he is usually teaching for both church services, and with DS not going, we're in the sanctuary instead, and don't cross paths very often. Anyway, he's been teaching longer now, maybe he'd have more insight into the personality of the helpers and such, and might have more clues.

Here is a similar situation that we experienced last spring. We had a just five year old boy in our preschool class. He didn't like the class (female teacher) or children's church (hubby teaching). He would throw a fit, they assumed we were the problem. They visited another local church one Sunday with some old friends and their son had a wonderful time in their children's church. So they left our church and started attending the other church. After 2 months there they were having the same problems.
Now, this isn't to say this would hold true for you, because their issue was a parenting problem...or lack of parenting. Their son ran their household. When he was in children's church (anywhere for that matter) he doesn't get to, so he hates. They were honestly bribing him with violent video games to attend, then he would laugh about it all through church that when he got picked up they would buy him X video game.
What happened when they visited the other church was as a visitor he was treated differently (we and most other churches do this too). Visitor gets to be line leader, gets to pick out stuff, gets a prize for visiting, gets the "special seat" in circle time so they want to come back. Can't do that for the same kid week after week, which is why he didn't like the other church either after a time. Good thought, thanks for helping brainstorm, but this isn't the situation here. DS was literally scared and had freaked out to the point of almost hyperventilating. He was terrified, and he couldn't catch his breath. He'd been like that for a long time. I'm not sure how long they let him go like that, so scared, before coming to get me, because the service was almost over, but he was so freaked out he couldn't breathe.

Later on, on the following 2 Sundays, he was visibly scared when we got there, and would not let me leave the classroom. He actually wanted us to both leave, and not be there at all, but I insisted we stay the first day and stayed to the edge of the classroom and didn't interfere after story time, just let him know that I was there.

The Sunday after that, he wouldn't let me leave the class again, and halfway through I just called it quits because he had gotten so scared that he wouldn't even participate this time, and I knew we just needed to stop trying to force it.

The situation in your example isn't quite the same though, because our son is very well behaved, and isn't doing this in an effort to be the center of attention or to be doted on. He is legitimately scared in the situation...not having a fit.

Also, helping out on a regular basis will give you a better idea of what is honestly going on. When we have "adult visitors" to children's ministries, kids behave differently then they do when those adults are there on a regular - or somewhat regular - basis. Another good suggestion, and one we'd been considering for a long time, but due to scheduling reasons, there are some Sundays where I can't commit to being at church that week. In order to be a helper with Sunday school at our church, you need to be able to commit to being there every single week on schedule. We have only one car, and my DH's job requires him to be on call every 4th week, and on those weeks, it's possible that if he got called out to work, that we'd need to leave church, or we wouldn't be able to get home, lol...so that won't work out so I can make the official committment to help out like they require.

Plus, we've decided not to continually try to force him into this, so until we figure it out, we're not going to stress him anymore by putting him in the situation where we're asking him about it every week, or making him go somewhere he's really scared of going. It's not like hanging out and hearing the adult's message will hurt him.

Gavin DeBecker of "Protecting the Gift" talks about how important it is to listen to our instinct. If something doesn't feel right with this children's pastor, then it probably isn't. And he also talks about how important it is to let our children say "no" to something they're not comfortable with. I give kuddos to you for not making your son stay in there if he doesn't feel good about it.
The bathroom incident troubles me.... I'm not quite sure how to put it, but something just seems off with this whole situation you've described.

Gavin DeBecker of "Protecting the Gift" talks about how important it is to listen to our instinct. If something doesn't feel right with this children's pastor, then it probably isn't. And he also talks about how important it is to let our children say "no" to something they're not comfortable with. I give kuddos to you for not making your son stay in there if he doesn't feel good about it.
The bathroom incident troubles me.... I'm not quite sure how to put it, but something just seems off with this whole situation you've described.

Me too, and I can't put my finger on it, and that drives me nuts! I know i should just pray about it and give it to God and keep going in the path DH and I know is right, but there's a part of me that's a little worried that if there is something wrong in that situation(be that the teacher, or the helper, or just the other little boy, or anything) that me not saying anything to anybody, but just pulling my own kid out and not going back could end up hurting some other little kid. But, in the same way, saying something like that when nothing's wrong could similarly hurt someone. Quite the dillemma.

I think I will pray more about it and read my Bible and ask DH what he thinks later tonight after the kids go to sleep. Its definitely a conversation we're hiding from the kids...all we want DS to know is that we respect him, and that we won't make him go if he doesn't want to. I'm confident he's not having any residual fear or anything from whatever scares him in the classroom, so we're just keeping our discussions out of the way of little ears.

Thanks for the suggestion, but it doesn't really apply for us...good thought though. DH is devoted to the boys and is the head of our household. The boys are devoted to him as well. Neither of them has any problems with other male authority figures whatsoever. Dad, Grandpa's, Uncles, Freinds of the Family, in fact, at the other church, it was a husband and wife team who taught the other class. DS came home telling me all about how the wife was a teacher, but the husband was a pastor, so he obviously enjoyed being taught in that setting.

Well, that is good to rule that out :) I didn't mean to assume anything but I know sometimes even in families where dh is hoh and is involved, it ends up being mom who mostly deals with tht eday to day, ya know 'sit fo rmeals, get dressed, jammies on, brush teeth, etc' so the male voice of authority can still end up being sort of "foreign... " Praying with you that you get to the bottom of the issue.

I just edited to add that it I may nto have realized in the op the extent of his reaction, as far as being truly fearful... I commend you for being so in tune with your ds and for dealing with it in such a thoughtful/thorough manner.

Well, that is good to rule that out :) I didn't mean to assume anything but I know sometimes even in families where dh is hoh and is involved, it ends up being mom who mostly deals with tht eday to day, ya know 'sit fo rmeals, get dressed, jammies on, brush teeth, etc' so the male voice of authority can still end up being sort of "foreign... " Praying with you that you get to the bottom of the issue.

I just edited to add that it I may nto have realized in the op the extent of his reaction, as far as being truly fearful... I commend you for being so in tune with your ds and for dealing with it in such a thoughtful/thorough manner.
I get what you mean. I am the SAHM and the main homeschooling parent, but DH somehow knows to give what I'm lacking, if that makes sense. Because I'm SO not supermom like some moms, LOL.

I think I would definitely trust my instincts. Like someone else said, it's better to be safe than sorry; and while we do not want to live in fear or paranoia, we also don't want our children hurt because we ignored those instincts. I don't really have further advice, but just wanted to say I'd take my child out of the class too if it were me.

I have read all the post, I think there is a lot of good adivce here. You don't want to over react, but you should never ignore your gut. First you need to go directly to the childern's pastor always go to the person, face to face. Air out how you feel. I agree an e-mail can and does get miss interpeted alot. You owe this to the childern's pastor, this could be a problem that is within your child. Keep your child with you until you can volunteer in there or someone you trust is in there. I agree it is better to be safe than sorry. Because I am sorry. I was young and naive. I thought all christians were above those things we read about or hear in the news. My son was 19 when to my husband's and my horror we found out he was molested for 2 summers in a row at a christian day camp we sent him to, when he was 9 & 10. I blame my self, he begged us not to take him back the second summer, but would never say why, gave lame excuses. My husband kept saying something is not right here. I wish I would have listen to him. I can not begin to say all we have been through with this kid. Who is now 26 and just starting to pull it together. He walked away from God, in his words why would a loving God allow this to happen to him, when he just loved God with all his heart. He was raised in the church and went to a christian school. My heart was broken, I still blame my self, first for chosing the place and second for not taking him out when he begged us not to take him back. When I look back, all the signs were there in his behavior. Thanks to many people in his life and much prayer by many, and to a very caring lawyer who has gone way beyond with my son. Who has helped us get him counseling. At first we thought he made it up as an excuse for all the trouble he was getting into. Our lawyer talked to us about how his anger and his life style are all the signs of what had happened to him. He connected us with a really good dr. that has helped our son alot.
It is not always a bad man/woman to blame, sometimes it is our childern, sometime it is a miss understanding. But I have to say I wish I had been safe, I only can dream how things could have been for my son, if I had listened to my son and to my husband's gut.
My husband and I now have a 15 year old daughter and a 11 year old son and we trust no one with them. I go everywhere they go. I'm a SAHM now. I have to say most christian's are godly people and are trust worthy. So give this man the chance to talk to you and your husband. It could be your child. It could be alot of things, just don't asume anything. In all things pray, pray, pray. God bless you and protect your childern.
Mary

Listen to your instincts. We are in a situation at church right now where a man had been coming for 3 years. Several ladies, myself included were very uncomfortable with his behaviour and the way he would look at the women and the girls. We brought it up and were ignored and told we were imagining things. In October he was arrested for molesting a little girl that comes to our church from the neighborhood. So if your instincts are telling you there is something wrong LISTEN. Anything you say may be denied or brushed off, but the Lord gave you instincts for a reason so use them!:-D You would much rather be on the safe side.

Mama4ever, thank you so much for sharing your story. I'll be praying that your son continues to heal from that ordeal, and you and your dh as well. I cannot imagine how you guys and your son felt after that, but I'm positive I don't want to ever find out. I do know though that the Great Physician can heal ANYTHING, even this, and that because he works everything together for good to those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose, that he can make something good come from even that experience.

Thanks again to everyone for their opinions. I am very glad that I could take this question somewhere and talk about it without naming names and anyone knowing where I live and what church I go to. It seems that the moment you bring something like that up, that rumors start to fly all over the place and many people get hurt.

For now, DH and I have decided we will not send him back there again. Because he wasn't any less scared when I was right there, I'm not going to pursue being a helper at this time either. We're going to pray and seek the Lord about this, and read the Bible too. I think I will pray that if the Lord wants me and DH to speak directly with the Children's pastor, that he opens up the opportunity and gives me the words to say....because I certainly don't know what to say in that situation...how do you tell someone that your child is scared to stay in their children's church class but loves other similar classes?...anyway, we're going to pray pray pray about it.

Mo2bid,
Thank you for your prayers. We need them. It is so hard to know where he is sometime. Because he did not tell us until he was 19, we as his parents legally have little say. He was over 18 and what doctors could have told us before he turned 18 was no longer available to us because he was now an adult. We are caught between a rock and hard place. My eyes are on the Lord and my prayer is for the Lord to restore his faith. I will keep you in my prayers.

Mary

(((Mama4Ever))) I'm sooo sorry for what you're son went thru. And I'm so sorry for the pain in your own heart. I will be praying also for your sweet son to start the process of healing.