Help! We seem to have lost our way a bit with discipline techniques for our 3 year old son. For a long time we have used time-out in the corner relatively successfully. He would quietly go to the corner when he understood that he had done something wrong and would come out after the allotted time (apologetic and behaving much more sensibly). Now it seems to have changed. Just the suggestion of time in the corner seems to bring out the worst in him. For example, he may be sent to the corner for repeatedly touching something that he was specifically told to leave alone or for hurting his sister (the main two problems at the moment). It should be simple enough - but at the suggestion of time-out he now turns into a monster (screaming, hitting and biting). This is behaviour that he never exibits at any other time and is really out of character. He also says "Jesus is not with me in the corner" - and will not believe us when we tell him that Jesus will not leave him. So, now instead of calming the situation it seems to be elevating the bad behavior to a level it never would have reached without introducing the punishment. I cannot enforce this if he is going to fight it violently because I don't want to wrestle him into the corner and it is actually illegal here to use the sort of force that would be required (our anti-spanking law also prohibits any other form of force used in discipline). Hence spanking is not an option either - although we didn't chose this form of discipline anyway.

Ds is extremely social - and being somewhere away from everyone else is a huge punishment to him. On the other hand, taking away toys doesn't seem to have much impact. He almost immediately moves on and forgets about them completely.

Does anyone have any suggestions of (non-physical) discipline techniques that have worked in your household for this age. My main concern is that we keep things really consistant for him and find something that both dh and I feel comfortable with and are able to follow through with. Generally he is a very well behaved little boy who only really wants to please us. But I don't want him to be getting confused messages about bad behaviour because we are not being consistant.

We are big 'time out' users here too. Usually it does the trick, but if Liam is tired or not well (health wise) then attempting to follow through on a time out can result in similar behaviour from him. He is always told that whatever he did was not appropriate and he may not behave that way. The only other thing we have done is send him to play in his room by himself for a bit. That works sometimes, but I don't know if that is too close to a time out for your little guy.

Another thought....Liam is really starting to be able to talk to us more about the whys and hows of his behaviour, particularly if we engage him when he is not upset. Have you talked to him about his behaviour during a calm moment? Maybe that would provide some insight...sorry I'm not more help.

My three yo DS can get quite beligerent during timeouts as well. We still use them but have found that positive reinforcement is our best bet.

One thing we have been doing that works quite well with DS is a sort of incentive chart.
As an example right now he has had horrible table manners screaming about what we are
z eating, touching others with his silverware, and on and on. So we are doing a chart right now for that. But we have done charts for going to bed for and for treating people nicely.

So I draw a line through the middle of a paper. To start off with I draw four circles on top and four circles on bottom. When he is having a good moment I sit down with him. I tell him my expectations and tell him if he does good he gets a smiley face and I draw an example of a smiley on top. Then we talk about if he does not follow the rules he gets a frownie face we talk about examples of not following the rules and then draw an example of a frownie on the bottom. I try to make the rules very simple and have just recently started writing them down so that DH and I can consistantly repeat the same things. Then we talk about if he get three more smileys what he gets. We've used everything from getting to wear his Thomas shirt to chocolate milk to rub on tatoos to hotwheels. We slowly build up the number of smileys he needs to get something and then fade the chart out when the problem behavior rarely shows itself.

I often forget to use this and then we sink into timeouts and power struggles and fights.

Also, if I catch him sharing with his little brother or bringing his brother his toys or his cup I try to give him hive fives or hugs and say "way to go following the rules". He just eats the praise up. If I slack on the catching him doing good things we most definitely have a back slide.

I hope you find something that helps. It can be so frustrating when you are butting up against discipline problems all of the time.

Thanks for your replies.

I think that we may have to start putting more emphasis on reward charts. I have used a chart once before for a specific behaviour - but I think that I need to be a bit more organised and consistant with my approach to these. I have also used those rub-on tattoos as rewards, and he is really keen on those. I saw an article in a magazine the other day where they divided the day up into sections and awarded stars for good behaviour during each part of the day. If the stars added up to more than a certain threshold they would get a reward (such as an extra story at bedtime). Has anyone tried this approach to starcharts?

Something I like to do with Renee is use logical consequences discipline. Like is she is throwing play-doh around after I tell her not to, the play-doh gets put away right away. Or if she's being rough with Ryan, she has to stay away from him for awhile. Generally this works pretty well, as she can see the connection between her behavior and the consequence. It doesn't work in all situations though, like if we're riding in the car and she's kicking the back of the seat or something. You can't make her leave the carseat and you can't take off her feet! :-D so it does have limitations, but we've found that to be quite helpful.

Oh, and i forgot to say that I'll give her a warning first, such as "Renee, if you keep throwing the Play-doh, Mommy will have to put it away" then give her enough time to stop. then I take it away if she doesn't stop. That way she knows what the consequence will be and she has a choice to obey or not.

One thing you said that struck me was when ds will say that Jesus isn't with him in the corner. My dd is turning three this week and when she is in trouble she will say things to try to get a reaction from me. For example, she will tell me that she doesn't love me anymore or that she wishes she had a different Mommy. I know that she doesn't really mean what she is saying but rather she is testing her limits and trying to get a reaction.

I wonder if your DS isn't doing the same thing. From what I have read, during times of testing it is most important for parents to remain consistent.

Sara

I think 3yr olds still need lots of redirection. And if there are things he is touching that he shouldn't be, is there a way you can put them up? Or provide an alternative for him - so there are things he CAN touch? For instance, we have a drawer in the kitchen for our kids to get into & play with. If they ever start to go to a drawer that is not for them, I simply guide them over to their own drawer.
Also, sometimes we can get into the habit of always telling them what they *can't* touch or what they *can't* do. Instead, maybe try telling him what he CAN do. Like if my son is taking his cars & pushing them along our walls, I tell him "push your cars on the floor" & motion to him & he does it. It's not as adverserial as "NO! Stop putting your cars on our wall, if you do it again then it's a Time out for you!"
I just think focusing & showing him what he *can* do can relieve a lot of frustration for both of you & is also teaching him what is acceptable at the same time.

What if you revamp your time out space? All children need a calm, safe place to relax if they're acting out or having a hard time listening.. a place where they can regroup, rest, think about their actions, etc. What about a "comfort corner" or "cuddle corner" instead of a time out space? Your son may respond to that better.

You can check that out here: http://goybparenting.com/?page_id=14

the goybparenting.com site is a great place to get non-violent ideas for discipline! :-)

One thing you said that struck me was when ds will say that Jesus isn't with him in the corner. My dd is turning three this week and when she is in trouble she will say things to try to get a reaction from me. For example, she will tell me that she doesn't love me anymore or that she wishes she had a different Mommy. I know that she doesn't really mean what she is saying but rather she is testing her limits and trying to get a reaction.

I wonder if your DS isn't doing the same thing. From what I have read, during times of testing it is most important for parents to remain consistent.

Sara While that's possible, I'd wonder if a 3 year old would be able to know that THAT (about Jesus) would get the biggest rise out of a parent?

One thing that sprang to my mind, is that some groups are kind of against the use of time-out because it essentially seperates the child from the love of the parent. I never used to think that way, but you know, when a child does XYZ, and you put him in the time-out area, you are essentially punishing him by withdrawing your love and comfort and conversation and and touch and making him taste loneliness and complete isolation for a few minutes as a punishment.

No matter what we do, God never does that to us. The Bible tells us that he is always there, and that if we can't hear his voice, its because we've moved away from Him, not the other way around.

By loving and teaching and disciplining our children, we're a model for Christ's love for them, so i would think, that it's possible for a child to believe that if he does xyz, that Jesus withdraws his love also, like his mom and dad do when he does xyz by putting him in time out.

A few suggestions that have worked for us (though we've used the corner/time-out too even though I'm right now reconsidering that because of this epiphone) are reward charts, like others have mentioned, and perhaps physically intervening and stopping the hitting and hurting and having a discussion about his feelings so he can identify how he's feeling (probably anger) and teaching him how to be angry, but sin not. Also, i think it would help to teach him to empathize and realize how others feel when he acts that way...though I know you're probably already doing tons of that. It might also help to teach him some tricks on how to deal with feelings of anger when he feels them...maybe some deep breaths through his nose and out his mouth, and properly learning how to verbalize his anger instead of becoming hurtful or disrespecful.

Since it seems like he has problems with only a couple of things, I think you'd get alot farther by removing the items that he can't seem to keep his hands off, or making them unaccessable until he has better impulse control, and to look into his reasons for hurting his sister....it could be that she eggs him on, or that he's angry, or some other reason, but if you get to the bottom of it, disciplining in that situation will become alot easier.

What if you revamp your time out space? All children need a calm, safe place to relax if they're acting out or having a hard time listening.. a place where they can regroup, rest, think about their actions, etc. What about a "comfort corner" or "cuddle corner" instead of a time out space? Your son may respond to that better.

You can check that out here: http://goybparenting.com/?page_id=14

the goybparenting.com site is a great place to get non-violent ideas for discipline! :-)

Oooh, thanks fo rthi slink; I too am trying to gain some new direction with discipline techniques and this just had me nodding my head, the wheels are turning now...

Just read the next post and this: "One thing that sprang to my mind, is that some groups are kind of against the use of time-out because it essentially seperates the child from the love of the parent." really jumped out at me as the ONE thing I don't ever want to do, as it is the way I have been discpilined (even in adulthood) by my parents, especially mom. I had NEVER thought about time-out in that light as I always thought it was "the" alternative to spanking...

Thanks for your replies.

Something I like to do with Renee is use logical consequences discipline. Like is she is throwing play-doh around after I tell her not to, the play-doh gets put away right away. Or if she's being rough with Ryan, she has to stay away from him for awhile. Generally this works pretty well, as she can see the connection between her behavior and the consequence. It doesn't work in all situations though, like if we're riding in the car and she's kicking the back of the seat or something. You can't make her leave the carseat and you can't take off her feet! :-D so it does have limitations, but we've found that to be quite helpful.

I would like to use logical consequences more where they can be applied. I have a problem with keeping the kids apart when he has been rough with his sister - because she always goes to great lengths to seek him out even when he has hurt her. They are both very protective of each other when they notice that the other is being repremanded (it is actually really sweet).

While that's possible, I'd wonder if a 3 year old would be able to know that THAT (about Jesus) would get the biggest rise out of a parent?

One thing that sprang to my mind, is that some groups are kind of against the use of time-out because it essentially seperates the child from the love of the parent. I never used to think that way, but you know, when a child does XYZ, and you put him in the time-out area, you are essentially punishing him by withdrawing your love and comfort and conversation and and touch and making him taste loneliness and complete isolation for a few minutes as a punishment.

No matter what we do, God never does that to us. The Bible tells us that he is always there, and that if we can't hear his voice, its because we've moved away from Him, not the other way around.

By loving and teaching and disciplining our children, we're a model for Christ's love for them, so i would think, that it's possible for a child to believe that if he does xyz, that Jesus withdraws his love also, like his mom and dad do when he does xyz by putting him in time out.

A few suggestions that have worked for us (though we've used the corner/time-out too even though I'm right now reconsidering that because of this epiphone) are reward charts, like others have mentioned, and perhaps physically intervening and stopping the hitting and hurting and having a discussion about his feelings so he can identify how he's feeling (probably anger) and teaching him how to be angry, but sin not. Also, i think it would help to teach him to empathize and realize how others feel when he acts that way...though I know you're probably already doing tons of that. It might also help to teach him some tricks on how to deal with feelings of anger when he feels them...maybe some deep breaths through his nose and out his mouth, and properly learning how to verbalize his anger instead of becoming hurtful or disrespecful.

Since it seems like he has problems with only a couple of things, I think you'd get alot farther by removing the items that he can't seem to keep his hands off, or making them unaccessable until he has better impulse control, and to look into his reasons for hurting his sister....it could be that she eggs him on, or that he's angry, or some other reason, but if you get to the bottom of it, disciplining in that situation will become alot easier.

I have moved as much as possible out of reach to remove temptations. The main problems at the moment are climbing dangerously to get things, push buttons on appliances (including the computer which we cannot move at the moment) or to hang out the windows (and I don't want little sister to watch and get ideas either). He even has his own little kiddies computer and various other things with buttons. But nothing is as interesting as the forbidden. I think that a lot of the problem is that he has not developed the impulse control required - both with touching things and hurting his sister. I don't think that hurting his sister is ever malicious (he adores her), most of the time he has no explaination for having done it. I think either he just got overexcited or, in other cases, just wanted to see what the reaction would be (pinching etc.).

When should we expect them to have the necessary impulse control? He can tell you the things that he is not allowed to do - he just seems to completely forget in the moment. He just goes with his immediate impulses (thankfully the majority of his impulses are good ones).

I think 3yr olds still need lots of redirection. And if there are things he is touching that he shouldn't be, is there a way you can put them up? Or provide an alternative for him - so there are things he CAN touch? For instance, we have a drawer in the kitchen for our kids to get into & play with. If they ever start to go to a drawer that is not for them, I simply guide them over to their own drawer.
Also, sometimes we can get into the habit of always telling them what they *can't* touch or what they *can't* do. Instead, maybe try telling him what he CAN do. Like if my son is taking his cars & pushing them along our walls, I tell him "push your cars on the floor" & motion to him & he does it. It's not as adverserial as "NO! Stop putting your cars on our wall, if you do it again then it's a Time out for you!"
I just think focusing & showing him what he *can* do can relieve a lot of frustration for both of you & is also teaching him what is acceptable at the same time.

What if you revamp your time out space? All children need a calm, safe place to relax if they're acting out or having a hard time listening.. a place where they can regroup, rest, think about their actions, etc. What about a "comfort corner" or "cuddle corner" instead of a time out space? Your son may respond to that better.

You can check that out here: http://goybparenting.com/?page_id=14

the goybparenting.com site is a great place to get non-violent ideas for discipline! :-)

Thanks for that link - I will have a read. I have also reserved a book from the library that covers "gentle discipline" but it may be a while before I get it.

I suppose I was expecting him to have already developed the impulse control required. Maybe we just need to work on it some more with gentle repetition and redirection. My tolerance for him doing thing that he has been told repeatedly not to do is probably low at the moment because his little sister is celebrating her new found freedom by getting into everything that she can find.

We have had some good chats about behaviour lately and he has shown some enthusiasm for a reward chart that we started today. I think that he is getting a better understanding of what is expected of him.

I have moved as much as possible out of reach to remove temptations. The main problems at the moment are climbing dangerously to get things, push buttons on appliances (including the computer which we cannot move at the moment) or to hang out the windows (and I don't want little sister to watch and get ideas either). He even has his own little kiddies computer and various other things with buttons. But nothing is as interesting as the forbidden. I think that a lot of the problem is that he has not developed the impulse control required - both with touching things and hurting his sister. I don't think that hurting his sister is ever malicious (he adores her), most of the time he has no explaination for having done it. I think either he just got overexcited or, in other cases, just wanted to see what the reaction would be (pinching etc.).

When should we expect them to have the necessary impulse control? He can tell you the things that he is not allowed to do - he just seems to completely forget in the moment. He just goes with his immediate impulses (thankfully the majority of his impulses are good ones). Does he have a space he can go to be alone? A place where little sis cannot go? I noticed after DS#2 got mobile, that DS#1 REALLY needed a place he could go where little brother couldn't get to him at all. Even before little brother was mobile, he was starting to get to the point where he liked to have a place where he could unwind alone and have "alone time". He was 3 when little brother was born. Anyway, maybe your ds is getting to the place where he might like to have a place that's all his own and he can get away from little sis? That certainly helps us when DS#2 is playing with DS#1's stuff and its creating problems...like with building toys or things that little brother just knocks down and stuff...