Just curious... don't answer if you feel uncomfortable, but who has tried IUDs? What was your experience and how do you feel about them?

I don't even know what an IUD is... :?

My understanding is that they don't prevent conception, only implantation, so a pregnancy is being terminated. I don't like that. :(

[heart]

Joy [welcomewave]

My understanding is that they don't prevent conception, only implantatiton, so a pregnancy is being terminated. I don't like that. :(

[heart]

Joy [welcomewave]

that sounds horrible! How does that even work?

If it is that thing they place inside you - yes... after my daughter was born, i kept on bleeding - eventually, that was my only choice of birth control if i wanted to breast feed. (and it was BC days') but i must say, i did not like it. It would feel uncomfortable/hurt every time DH & I would... so i had it removed.
Now that the Lord is Lord of my life, i think i feel TOTALLY different about birth control. only, i don't think my husband shares the same feelings... and telling him about that family that had 15 children was not the best move.. ;)

All the best.

I could give list after list of people (including my mother) who have used them and had severe probelms. But basically, everything I have read about it makes me feel like this terminates pregnancy rather than simply preventing it. It does not stop ovulation, it does not destroy sperm, so you can get pregnant, it just keeps the egg from implanting in your uterine wall.
In my mothers case, in the mid 80's, she had this implanted. She had unusually large amounts of bleeding each month, but that was expected. The problem occured when after about 4 months she didn't bleed at all one month. Then, the next month she started passing large clots (miscarrying). She ended up in the hospital, having it removed, had a D&C and had to take medication to stop the bleeding. My parents tried for several years after that to have another child, unsuccessfully. She will always believe this is the reason why she couldn't conceive again.
I know this is just my opinion, but this is the worst choice for BC out there. It can be very destructive to your fertility and your overall health. I don't want to offend any who have used this in the past or currently do. It's just my opinion and personal experience. But please, think LONG and HARD before you make the step to do this. There are way too many risks for you and your fertility.

I was wondering actually more about the ones with hormones inside... like the Mirena... I was under the impression that since it has a hormone, it's not aborting like the other ones... correct me if I'm wrong.

I used it and had horrible experiences. I defintely would not recommend it! :cry:

I've never used an IUD myself but my OBGYN gave me the impression that there are newer models available that are made of a copper material and give off hormones, both of which are supposed to prevent ovulation instead of just implantation. I understand why many (myself included) would not want to use b.c. that only prevented the latter. My pregnancies have all been classified as "high risk". DH and I were told 5 years ago that we would not concieve again and had completed an adoptive homestudy before our current pregnancy suprisingly blessed us. Because of the health issues involved for me and baby we do not believe that we want to conceive again... we're considering having my tubes tied while I'm in to deliver this May. Has anyone done this? If so, what was your experience like (if you don't mind sharing)? On the one hand it seems to make sense, especially since I'll likely be having another c-sec. On the other hand I'm wondering if it will be a bit much to deal with all at once. Although we're not certain that the Lord is finished growing our family we are feeling as though it would be through adoption after this.
BTW,I don't mean to hijack your post or to suggest that a tubal would be the best route for you. Good luck with your b/c decisions.
Blessings,
Beth

I've never used an IUD myself but my OBGYN gave me the impression that there are newer models available that are made of a copper material and give off hormones, both of which are supposed to prevent ovulation instead of just implantation.


I have heard this also, I think the Mirena is some kind of flexible plastic that gives off hormones to prevent conception & implantation (kind of like regular hormonal BC), but the copper one - Paraguard - does not have hormones, so it would prevent implantation only. Both newer models are supposed to be much safer (for the mom) than the old ones, but they both kind of wig me out and I don't think I could use either personally. I did briefly consider trying Mirena after ds # 1 was born, but I couldn't go thru with it.

There is a new alternative to tubal ligation called Essure (http://www.essure.com/), they put these mascara-wand looking things into your tubes and it makes your tubes close up so that your eggs do not migrate into the tubes or uterus anymore; it is supposed to be safer/less invasive/less painful/more effective.

I am not really sure what to do about BC once ds # 2 is born, maybe I will pick up that TCoYF book everyone has been talking about...

I used it a long time ago. My body wouldn't allow it to stay inside me. So I chose another way. Also, while I did have it I cramped all the time. So for the most part my experience wasn't too good with it.

Christine-thanks for that link. The procedure looks interesting and I'll mention it to my doc.
Beth

Mirena is fairly safe and does use hormones to stop actual ovulation. It is something that I could see myself using if needed in the future.
But where I come from in the medical field and pharmaceuticals, it isn't considered an IUD in the typical sense. I didn't mean to sound preachy about IUD's earlier, I've just seen the metal/copper ones do so much harm I hate to hear anyone really wanting to use one.
If Mirena is an option financially for you, ask lots of questions, but as far as my research on it goes, it does not "abort", it stops ovulation with hormones just like the "pill".

Hope you find peace about whatever form of BC you use. And of course, I will put a plug in like many of the other ladies about NFP. There is lots of success with charting cervical mucus and temps.

Good Luck!

I'm really confused here; my husband and I have done some researching into the "abortive" effects of the copper IUD (since I have one, and have had one after each of our children have been born) and we found a lot of CONTRADICTORY articles and MOST of them say that it is NOT abortive, and prevents conception, period, not just implantation.

For those of you that are saying it's abortive, can you please post some supportive reading material? I am VERY curious, because if it IS in fact, abortive, then I certainly do NOT want to use it anymore. Again, what we found when we researched said that it was *not* abortive.

Just for a side note, I have had three different ones so far, and have not had a problem. I had one that was inserted kind of funny, but my midwife put a new one in and it has been fine ever since. I have a little more cramping and heavier flow but, otherwise, it's fine. I prefer it over BC pills, the diaphram and the minipill, all of which I have tried before.

As you may have guessed, I do have the Mirena. I've had it for 8 months now... I was just curious & wanted to see what others thought or if anyone had some info on it. I talked it over with my dr. who is a Christian, and he said it was non-abortive, especially because of the hormone. I would've like to go with copper just because I gain weight so much on hormones, but since I've had SERIOUS AF ever since age 11, I didn't want to go that route (copper IUDs cause more cramping/bleeding). After ds #2, who was very colicky for 7 months, I had a lot of depression, and just generally feeling overwhelmed (still do :cry: ) I decided that any more kids in the near future was not an option. I've been pretty happy with it... just the first 2 months were pretty crampy. I have to admit I was almost ready to get it taken out, but life's great now! I hardly have AF anymore & I can function a lot better as a mom/wife without the worry of getting PG again... just my rambling thoughts...

Hormonal birth control can be abortive - it's the last measure in preventing a pregnancy.

From http://www.mirena-us.com/faq.html?C=&c=S1

A. There is no single explanation of how Mirena works.
Mirena may:


* Block sperm from reaching or fertilizing your egg
* Make the lining of your uterus thin (this may also result in benefits like less menstrual bleeding over time)
* Stop the release of your egg from your ovary (but this may not be the way it works in most cases)

It is believed that all 3 of these actions may work together to prevent pregnancy.

The problem is, IF the birth control FAILS to stop an egg from releasing (which can happen often from the pill), and FAILS to stop the sperm from reaching the egg, the "fail safe" measure is a thin uterine lining WHICH PREVENTS IMPLANTATION. This happens with all hormone based birth control. If all three measures fail, you get pregnant, and this DOES happen that is why NONE of them are 100% effective rate. There are tons of women who have gotten preggo on the pill, for instance.

This is why my DH and I have chosen to not use any hormonal birth control and only use barrier methods or NFP. they don't really advertise that it can be abortive, most count on the first two actions (ovulation prevention or sperm/egg meet prevention.)

I almost used the patch before I knew this. But, I got pregnant before my next period arrived so I never got to start it, PTL. LOL

here's some pro-life info on hormonal contraceptives. Don't take their word for it though, look it up yourself. SOMEWHERE on the sites for these birth control methods, they mention they thin uterine lining and the fact you may indeed ovulate, fertilize, etc, but not implant.

http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html

Here is some info from the patch I was going to use (but later didn't after I was pg and then found out about this)



from http://www.orthoevra.com/html/pevr/faq.jsp?#how

9 How does ORTHO EVRA help to prevent pregnancy?
ORTHO EVRA helps prevent pregnancy the same way birth control pills do: by preventing ovulation, which means that the ovary does not release an egg to be fertilized; by thickening the cervical mucus, which makes it more difficult for sperm to enter the uterus; and by changing the endometrium to reduce the chance of implantation.

Anyhow, there's the info, you can take it or leave it. ;) it is this way with all hormone BC.

how about the copper???

[quote]Effectiveness and mechanism of contraception
All second-generation copper-T IUDs have failure rates of less than 1% per year, and cumulative 10-year failure rates of 2-6%.[8] A large WHO trial reported a cumulative 12-year failure rate of 2.2% for the T 380A (ParaGard) (an average failure rate of 0.18% per year over 12 years), equivalent to a cumulative 10-year failure rate of 1.8% following tubal ligation.[3] The frameless GyneFix also has a failure rate of less than 1% per year.[9] Worldwide, older IUD models with lower effectiveness rates are no longer produced.[10]

The presence of a device in the uterus prompts the release of leukocytes and prostaglandins by the endometrium. These substances are hostile to both sperm and eggs; the presence of copper increases this spermicidal effect.[11][12] The same effect is believed to harm developing embryos. While the primary mechanism of the IUD is spermicidal/ovicidal, post-fertilization mechanisms are believed to contribute significantly to their effectiveness.[13] Because many pro-life groups define fertilization as the beginning of pregnancy, this secondary effect has led some to label the IUD an abortifacient.



Found on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrauterine_device

This was one of the deciding factors for me to not use these products. I'm sorry that they aren't explained more thoroughly by doctors when you become interested in different forms of BC. Also, the same page has some slightly unsettling comments about Mirena too, although I still feel it is more of a hormonal preventative treatment than regular IUD's.

hhmmm.... thanks!

I guess I was lucky... when I was talking to my Doc about bc, HE was the one who told me that IUD's don't stop fertalization, they stop implantation.

I have one. Mine is the non-hormonal Mirena. I was worried about adding hormones when I was nursing. The way it has been explained to me is that it prevents the sperm from reaching the egg. I'm not really sure how, also it can prevent the egg from being released at all.

As for less periods, no. I have much heavier periods and the cramps are worse. For now, this was the best choice for us, because I didn't want the pill while I nursed and we cannot afford a second child. I would like me husband to get snipped, but we want to wait to see if we can afford a second child in the next year or two before we both get too old to want to.

how about the copper???

I also found this info on the copper Paraguard IUD, not sure if that is the one you have, it is the only brand I am aware of:
http://www.paragard.com/paragard/custom_images/ppi_eng.pdf

under "How does Paraguard work?" It does say it can prevent implantation.

Beth, can you tell me more about the non-hormonal Mirena? I know the regular one is estrogen-free, but on the website it says that it still does have Levonorgestrel:
http://www.mirena-us.com/howmirenaworks.html?C=&c=S1

I still have a few more mos before I have to worry about BC. I am wavering between NFP and going back on something hormonal - on the one hand i am so tired of hormones but on the other I am so worried about getting pg again right after i have this one - in my heart I know God won't give us more than we can handle, but our finances are tight already...

Just a side note on NFP. I did that for a month when we first got married. Ten months later, we decided to name her Audrey.

Just a side note on NFP. I did that for a month when we first got married. Ten months later, we decided to name her Audrey.

Yeah that is what I am worried about, although at this point I almost feel like no birth control is going to work for me and dh - I got pg with ds #1 using a barrier method w/spermicide and pg with ds # 2 while on bc pills - I had a timer/alarm and took them every nite at 9pm, but they were progesterone-only pills bec I was nursing - I have heard those are less effective than bc pills that use hormone combos? But the hormone combo pills also lower milk production.
I will be nursing again and don't want to do anything that would diminish my milk supply - I think I would be ok with just 2 kids for a few yrs before I have another, but I feel like God may have other ideas for us! Kinda nervous about that, I hope God leads me and dh to the right decision about what kind of bc method to use, if any.

I didn't want to get all embroiled in this debate, because it is a very touchy subject. I was personally very against IUD's until a few years ago, when a friend confided in me that she was having trouble with the one she'd just had implanted. I was kind of stunned, asked wasn't it an abortifacient? She said that she didn't think so, which set me off on an odyssey of research.

This is what I found out. Without hormones (hers was a non-hormonal Paragard), IUD's are thought (I don't think anyone's 100% on how they work yet) to work by causing the cervix to produce more mucous. The thicker mucous prevents sperm from travelling past the cervix. There are a lot of websites out there, run by pro-lifers, but all of the info I read on those was regarding the old IUD's. They've improved them tremendously in past years, to the point that they're no longer dangerous to have implanted. Only if they contain hormones do they cause the uterine lining to thin and prevent implantation of fertilized eggs, kind of like birth control pills.

Q&A from iVillage http://health.ivillage.com/gyno/gynobc/0,,463x,00.html:
We don't yet have definitive answers on how IUDs work. They may prevent pregnancy by affecting sperm, eggs and the lining of the uterus. Recent studies indicate that IUDs may also have effects outside the uterus. In one study, IUD users demonstrated no evidence of fertilization. The IUD appears to operate in one of two ways:

- By interfering with migration of sperm from the vagina to the fallopian tube.
- By accelerating egg transport through the fallopian tube, thus impeding fertilization.

Since neither of these possibilities makes it an abortifacient, I was like, Birth control almost as failsafe as sterilization that's not permanent? Oh, sign me up! Of course, I prayed about it. Very fervently for months, because I didn't want to do anything to displease God. And I kept researching it. And kept coming back to studies that showed that women with IUD's just didn't produce pregnancy hormones, which means that fertilization isn't happening. And they can't prevent implantation without fertilization, so... I've got one. Cost me $1000, but that's about $2/month over ten years' time, if you look at the big picture.

Sometimes I wonder if bc companies make their products so confusing on purpose! I don't want to debate either, but I do think it is important to have as much info as possible.

The link to Paragard's own website I posted before
http://www.paragard.com/paragard/custom_images/ppi_eng.pdf
Says that it can work by preventing sperm from reaching the egg, just preventing fertilization in general and by preventing implantation. It does allow for the possibility of that occuring, even if that is not its primary method of functioning.
Is there a brand for a non-hormonal copper IUD other than this one - I haven't been able to find any online so far. Paraguard is also called the
T380A.

Mirena seems purposefully vague on their site, saying that the hormones do thin the uterine lining, but not pointing out that this prevents implantation also.

I want to emphasize that I am not judging anyone over this - I have admitted to using BC pills in the past, which pose the same implantation issues as a secondary function even if that is not the primary way that they work. I just think it is important to also check the manufacturer's website to see what they say about their own product and not just what other sources might say.

Is there anyone for whom NFP is working for consistently that tends to get pg REALLY easily when trying to?

The Mirena releases a hormone to stop ovulation and it also helps with ovarian cysts. With the Mirena, your periods are to become lighter and may eventually stop. It lasts 5 years, but you can hace it taken out at anytime and try to get pregnant very soon after.

The copper IUD is a 10 year IUD--but the same thing---you can take it out at anytime to try and get pregnant. It does not contain any hormones--the copper kills sperm. It will not affect your cycle-you should have them regularly and it will not help with ovarian cysts.

Does this help?

Is there anyone for whom NFP is working for consistently that tends to get pg REALLY easily when trying to?

Well I got pg without trying to both times... I got pg within 2 weeks of being married & I just got pg again. I was using NFP but, the month I got pg I was not being so careful with it, and that was my fault. it worked wonderfully for the 8 months i was carefully observing my mucus etc. But I slacked off one month and was not so careful, so now I am pregnant. I learned my lesson, I either have to be careful with NFP or have lots of babies. LOL

Has anyone heard anything about the NuvaRing? My ob\gyn strongly suggested for me to use this to help decrease my ovarian cysts. I have used it for the last 3 months and have done okay with it---have had some bleeding mid-cycle with it. I have done a bit of research and found it has a risk of blood clots. That scares me. I have been having this wierd and persistant feeling to discontinue use of this.

Has anyone heard of anything bad about NuvaRings?

Or could that feeling to discontinue be God's way of telling me time to have another baby???? [whateeeeeksign]

LOL

Has anyone heard anything about the NuvaRing? My ob\gyn strongly suggested for me to use this to help decrease my ovarian cysts. I have used it for the last 3 months and have done okay with it---have had some bleeding mid-cycle with it. I have done a bit of research and found it has a risk of blood clots. That scares me. I have been having this wierd and persistant feeling to discontinue use of this.

Has anyone heard of anything bad about NuvaRings?

Or could that feeling to discontinue be God's way of telling me time to have another baby???? [whateeeeeksign]

LOL

I haven't heard anything bad about it - a coworker of mine was using the patch but switched to NuvaRing bec the adhesive from the patch bothered her skin and she liked not having to worry about having a pill to take every day, didn't have any bad side effects. Blood clots are a risk with any hormonal bc unfortunately, not just NuvaRing.

If you have been feeling like you should stop for a while, you probably should - it just may not be right for you. I guess pray on it and talk to dh about it?

I just think it is important to also check the manufacturer's website to see what they say about their own product and not just what other sources might say.

That's exactly what I did, but I tend to research a little more thoroughly than just reading the handout from the manufacturer. They are actually required to include that information because it was found in one study that IUD's had the effect of thinning the uterine lining in rats, but no one has been able to duplicate those results in humans.

The most important thing that I think you have to do when making such a decision is to talk to God. I prayed/pray for Him to show me if I'm sinning with this; I even prayed for Him to have something go wrong with the implantation if getting one would be sinful. He knows my concerns, and He knows my desire to not displease Him. For example, NuvaRing sounded wonderful to me at first, but it's hormonal. Those hormones have been proven to thin the uterine lining, so I'm not taking any chances.

I just think it is important to also check the manufacturer's website to see what they say about their own product and not just what other sources might say.

That's exactly what I did, but I tend to research a little more thoroughly than just reading the handout from the manufacturer. They are actually required to include that information because it was found in one study that IUD's had the effect of thinning the uterine lining in rats, but no one has been able to duplicate those results in humans.

I didn't mean to upset you with my post or imply that you had not done any research-I'm sorry. :oops:

The most important thing that I think you have to do when making such a decision is to talk to God.

[amenamen]

Just a side note on NFP. I did that for a month when we first got married. Ten months later, we decided to name her Audrey.

LOL. Yea, 10 months later we decided to name her Kaylis ;). But I was hoping for a slip up and probably got to close to the line!

ETA: I just read your other posts, and it's very interesting...

I've heard lots of people (including doctors) say that IUD's are "safe" and "non-abortive" but when I did my own research I have to conclude that those doctors don't want to cause a stir and they just want to do things thier own way. If they were honest with what they knew then they wouldn't get the financial kick back from a lot of thier pro-life patients. I feel sorry for the poor saps who just listen to thier doctors and do no reasearch on thier own :(.

Sometimes I wonder if bc companies make their products so confusing on purpose! I don't want to debate either, but I do think it is important to have as much info as possible.

The link to Paragard's own website I posted before
http://www.paragard.com/paragard/custom_images/ppi_eng.pdf
Says that it can work by preventing sperm from reaching the egg, just preventing fertilization in general and by preventing implantation. It does allow for the possibility of that occuring, even if that is not its primary method of functioning.
Is there a brand for a non-hormonal copper IUD other than this one - I haven't been able to find any online so far. Paraguard is also called the
T380A.


Well I read paragard's stuff, but what i found really weird was that you can get pregnant while you are using it. So, if it's *possible* to get pregnant on it, and then removal risks miscarriage, but then again non-removal risks miscarriage too, what are the odds that it is not interfering with implantation? I mean I would want like 100%, because I would rather have 20 babies than possibly harm one, KWIM? Although I have no idea what I would do if I had 20 kids. LOL



"What if I become
pregnant while using
Paragard?
If you think you are pregnant,
contact your healthcare professional
right away. If you are pregnant and
ParaGard® is in your uterus, you
may get a severe infection or shock,
have a miscarriage or premature labor and delivery, or even die. Because
of these risks, your healthcare provider will recommend that you have
ParaGard® removed, even though removal may cause miscarriage.
If you continue a pregnancy with ParaGard® in place, see your
healthcare provider regularly. Contact your healthcare provider right
away if you get fever, chills, cramping, pain, bleeding, flu-like
symptoms, or an unusual, bad smelling vaginal discharge.
A pregnancy with ParaGard® in place has a greater than usual chance of
being ectopic (outside your uterus). Ectopic pregnancy is an emergency
that may require surgery. An ectopic pregnancy can cause internal
bleeding, infertility, and death. Unusual vaginal bleeding or abdominal
pain may be signs of an ectopic pregnancy.
Copper in ParaGard® does not seem to cause birth defects."

I read what cheesburger posted off their web site a while ago and the fact that the manufacturer says
there is no single explaination why it works and it may do this and this
really scared me. But I don't take anything that will compromise the lining of my uterus for the fact that it will cause a fertilized egg to expel from my body.

I have seen ob's really promote the iud's, but I don't know if they are the same ob's who have no conviction performing or recommending abortions either.

Eeek! :shock: Now I don't know what I'm going to do! I was planning to get the 10 year non-hormonal IUD after I have this baby. We are still pretty young and although we now think this will be our last baby we might want to change our minds 5-10 years down the road.....I refuse to take anything hormonal. I've never taken any type of BC with hormones....the IUD just seemed to make sence (before I researched it a bit)....hmmmm, now what to do.

Just curious... don't answer if you feel uncomfortable, but who has tried IUDs? What was your experience and how do you feel about them?My sister in law swears by the IUD. She loves it. I personally just don't feel comfortable with a crazy foreign object inside of me, but that's just me. I'm glad she has success with it, but I couldn't do it myself. I believe she has the Mirena (sp?) which IS hormone releasing. There are two kinds of IUD's...the hormonal releasing ones and the non-hormonal releasing ones.

My 2 cents... In the few bc comparison articles I've read, it would seem IUDs rank low, as having the worst rap/risks. At least it's cons stand out to me more than other forms downsides. There are methods that would, personally, suit me better-- as I wouldn't want a foreign object up there, and I wouldn't want to use bc pills/patches either. We'll default to something less invasive, if the need arises.

I read what cheesburger posted off their web site a while ago and the fact that the manufacturer says
there is no single explaination why it works and it may do this and this
really scared me. But I don't take anything that will compromise the lining of my uterus for the fact that it will cause a fertilized egg to expel from my body.

I have seen ob's really promote the iud's, but I don't know if they are the same ob's who have no conviction performing or recommending abortions either.

Ditto.

Please don't bash me for this.

But personally for me and my dh, before we had Lexi we talked about birth control for after she was born. Nothing we researched really felt right for us, nothing really suited us. Hormonal was already out because I had taken it before, and even on the lowest possible dose, I was out of my mind, paranoid, awful cramps, and just plain crazy. It almost ruined our relationship.

Thankfully my doctor never pushed the IUD on me, he asked me about it, I said no, and he said ok. (I love my doctor, and will be going back to him with my next pregnancy too. He is a very special doctor, he cares about his patients, not about whether they can pay or not. He also drives an old Pinto, and works on his land, and has an ear ring! )

Sorry to stray off topic. But we decided that if we got pregnant it would be because God willed it, and he never gives us any more than what He knows we can handle. We may not have a lot of money, but any child that came into our home would be a blessing.

Sorry to stray off topic. But we decided that if we got pregnant it would be because God willed it, and he never gives us any more than what He knows we can handle. We may not have a lot of money, but any child that came into our home would be a blessing.

[amenamen]

I have to say this about the IUD: I tried it for a year and believe it caused me to miscarry. I bled for almost a year straight and the reason we don't know for sure if I miscarried is that my midwife didn't believe me when I continued to call in stating I was bleeding everyday. I waited too long after having a miscarriage to go to the midwife's since they had not believed I was having problems so many times before. So we couldn't really prove my pregnancy but I know I was pregnant.

I hate to tell this story but I just wanted it to be a warning to those who have or have considered having the IUD. I have totally had bad experiences with it. :cry:

Just out of curiosity, Breanne, had you taken an HPT? I think I had a miscarriage at one point, but I can't be sure. I took an HPT that came out positive, but I started spotting a little bit later, went to the doctor, and it came back negative. (PTL--this was before I was a Christian or even married. I didn't seek prenatal care, because I was freaking out for about a month, lol.) The best I can figure is that something happened with the baby and my body stopped producing the pregnancy hormones before I started spotting.

I'm sorry you had such bad experiences with bleeding while you had your IUD. I would've had it removed after the first month, lol!

I can totally understand feeling that God won't give you a child if it's not His will. But, I also believe that God gave us the knowledge to control our reproductive systems. And, as someone who can get an admiring glance from her husband and get pregnant, I'm not inclined to take chances, lol! To be honest, if it were up to me, we'd start trying again, but it's not my decision alone. So...