I have a just-turned 5 year old little boy with a passive personality. I'm having trouble adapting some fairly standard discipline philosophies to his rather unique personality. As he's growing older, I'm starting to expect more from him in the way of obedience, responsibilitiy, cooperation, etc. I'm trying to pull away from tequniques such as spankings and time outs and phase in more natural consequences and rewards for the choices he makes. Problem is, he's soooo passive that a) no disipline I enforce seems to ever bother him, except that of corporal punishment, which I do NOT want to rely on as my primary method of training his little heart.

Here is just ONE example that will help you understand the personality I'm struggling with...

Regarding the simple chore of him making his bed in the morning. I know he can do it and do it fast when he wants. My goal is to teach him to make his bed in the morning as soon as he gets out of it. In the past, the only thing I've done that's worked (and only sometimes) is setting a timer for him to make his bed with the threat of a spanking at the end of the timer. More recently, the *natural* consequences I've tried switching to have included no breakfast until it's done, no playtime, confiscation of any toys played with until it's done, confinement to his room until done, promise of fun games, yummy food, exciting outings, etc etc, when completed... Yet with his stubborn yet passive personality he will just hold out and hold out and not do it all day long until close to dinner time.

My problem with the above scenario is a) this isn't teaching him immediate compliance, b) it feels like he's getting away with blatant defiance (passive though it may be) and c) it's STILL usually spankings in the end (from breaking his restrictions) that motivate him to compliance. I don't want to rely on spankings as a default because I'm afraid that he'll view the spankings as the "problem" and not his poor choice as the "problem", and also because I want to reserve spankings for more serious and uncommon offenses. I've also tried time-outs as a default punishment, but they don't seem to bother him in the slightest bit. I've even tried (experimentally) giving him a time out for an entire hour, but even that didn't seem to bother him, nor did it deter him from repeating the offense.

I NEED SUGGESTIONS OF CONSEQUENCES I can give him that will make him miserable enough to motivate him yet not *force* him into compliance through physical pain. SUGGESTIONS??? OR do you think it's possible that he's too young still to understand the complexities of natural consequences, and that spankings are truly all the consquence he can understand?

My thought is...

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

If spanking is what gets him to obey, then stick with it. As long as you are applying this method appropriately...not in anger and with discussion of the issue.

You are right to expect immediate obedience and seeing that the 'no breakfast, etc. til it's finished' thing isn't producing that immediate result, but spanking does...stick to spanking.

Let him know you expect obedience *first time, every time* and the consequences for disobedience will be X swats. Increase the # as needed to get the point across..at intervals as you see fit as well. Meaning, first offense that DAY may mean 4 swats then each subsequent offense THAT day earns one more swat. Or, you may increase through the day as needed, then the next day, the stakes start higher, with first offense earning 6 swats, which will go up as before for repeat offenses that day.

But always always always tell him what he's done wrong and remind him of what is expected as well as the consequences. He cannot be given an 'out' an alternative.

Different kids learn things in different ways and at different times. It just may take him a while to catch this one. Also, remember spanking is a training tool...you won't need to still be spanking him like this when he's 13 ;) Be consistent now, and you shouldn't need to anyway.

You just nearly quoted verbatum what my best friend told me. Heehee! And you're both probably right. I guess I just struggle, because I got a tad too many spankings as a kid (and not the appropriate kind that you suggest), AND I fear that if I rely on them as my primary tool, then that means I WILL still be having to spank him at 13 and not knowing any other way to discipline. :S

But alas, spankings at 6 probably won't kill him, so perhaps I'll just let my fears go for a year or so and then see where we're at. :)

Thanks for your encouraging words! ((((hugs))))

AND I'M STILL OPEN TO OTHER OPINIONS, LADIES, IF ANYONE HAS ONE... All your avice has value to me, whether I completely agree or not - so let me hear it! :D

For what it's worth...I still *need* to spank my 9 yr old on occasion. Not as often as I did at 3, or even 6 ;) But he still gets them from time to time.

I don't know if I have any suggestions that may help since I only have a 2yr old but my wonderful sister-n-law has 6yr & 8 yr old...I've gotten some really awesome ideas just from watching her...in fact, we even talk about discipline when we hear techniques that sound really good...in some cases, we get excited to implement them when given the opportunity!! [thumbsup] I think we are extremely TWISTED!!! [rofl] Anyway...I hope I might have some ideas that could help. I once went to a seminar at church on parenting according to personality types. It sounds like your ds is a "D" or "Red" personality...they actually are very driven, competitive, independent, don't like to be bossed, like to be in charge, etc... They are natural born leaders. My peronality is 100% "I" or "Blue"...I'm the social bug, can't stop talking, love to be the center of attention, etc... I wished I could remember this guys' name (I was single at the time OR I would have purchased his book) but he said you have have to discipline according to their personality...so for example, if you grounded the "D" personality from the phone...that wouldn't work cuz they would just tell you, "That's okay...I'll be able to buy my own phone some day!!" BUT if you grounded an "I" personality from the phone...OMG!!! They'd rather be beaten!! (That's me, BTW!) :lol: Dr. Kevin Leman has a book out called, "Making your children mind without losing yours" & it's fabulous book on reality disciplining. You have done many many fabulous things & if the spanking is working then I'd be opt to stick w/ it, too. I can understand though as a mom where you fear it's too much sooo maybe there is another way but you just haven't found that 'trigger' point of ds, yet. Let me ask... does $$ motivate him? Even though he's 5, $$ is a BIG motivator for "Red" personalities!! Maybe you could implement an allowance for chores...and it doesn't have to be much $2 or $3 a week (whatever you deem appropriate)... and instead of pulling your hair out trying to get him to make his bed... don't pay him for the days he doesn't make his bed. If he is motivated by $$, it won't take very long for him to figure that out. And I wouldn't tell him...if you don't do this, you aren't going to earn allowance...I'd wait until the day you are supposed to pay him & then tell him, "Remember when you didn't make your bed? In the real world, if we don't work, we don't get paid...If you want your allowance, you are going to have to complete your chores in a timely manner." Something like that? Is he involved in t-ball or soccor or anything activity like that that he loves? What I have learned from Kevin Leman is sometimes the BEST discipline isn't done immediately. If he has an activity that he regularly partakes in that he loves...what you might do is when it is time to go say, "We aren't going today... you chose not to make your bed (in timely fashion if need) this morning...you made a choice...so we aren't going." But again, I wouldn't tell him that in advance like, "if you don't make your bed then we aren't going to ..." I think it would be a lot more impacting if you did right before you walked out...it'll hit home. Ummmm....let's see...cleaning? Does he enjoy cleaning? You know cleaning the toilet base w/ a toothe brush is very unpleasant...he might pick up right away how nasty that is... Ummmm...does he enjoy TV? I don't know how much TV you allow your children but my SIL only allows 1 hr so what she did was create "TV Bucks"...and they start w/ just 1hr of TV...but she allowed them to recieve additional TV Bucks for good behavior that could be used on Friday Evening...BUT, she would also take away TV for behavior also.

I hope I've given some direction on suggestions of other ideas that might work...But if all else fails, I agree w/ Tara... the spanking is working & I'd stick w/ it!!

God Bless!

OH, I forgot another idea? There is a gal in my bible study who makes her children run laps around the house!! Especially when they are tooo rambuctious...she's say give me 5 & send them out the door!! And if it's muddy? Then take your shoes off, she says!! And she'll stand at the kitchen window & watch :lol: . Of course, he is only 5 but if it's feasible...he might physically be able to handle 2 laps around the house?? LIS, it's just a matter of finding that 'trigger' & I don't know if any of these ideas will work but it might....

Five is defintely not too young to understand natural consequences; even a young toddler can graps them. We've used natural and logical consequences since ds was just a few months old. I'm from the school of thought that believes (especially with his personality type) punishment makes no sense unless it fits the "crime."

With the bed-making thing, maybe he's the type that has trouble getting started with tasks? One thing to try is when you go in to wake him in the morning, help him get started with making the bed (without asking him if he needs help), and then leave him to complete it while letting him know you are going to get started on breakfast. For a while you may be doing the bulk of the bed-making, but gradually you turn the duty over to him.

If that doesn't work, then I personally would try a more drastic method like removing all of the bedding, except for maybe the fitted sheet, so he can grow to appreciate that bedding and want to take better care of it. I wouldn't bother with a warning; if he doesn't follow through with making his bed then just take it all away and tell him you will return it when he decides he is able to take responsibility for it. Sure he may get chilly for a few nights, but the ball will be in his court.

What a fabulous idea...removing the bedding!! I never would have thought about that...that is a fabulous suggestion...Thanks for sharing!!!

NICE IDEA, Cristina! I just might try that - haha!! I might come to you for a few more ideas in the future, if you don't mind. :)

As far as punishment-fitting-the-crime goes, I agree, but this is where my DS makes it difficult for me. You see, I have learned from watching carefully that there are OFTEN times where his passivitiy is an outright act of defiance - in which case I am compelled to put a stop to that with a spankin'. But it's so hard to tell, sometimes, when a passive behavior is deliberate or just an indicator or his age or personality or need for structure. Does that make any sense? :S

And thanks for the ideas, Relivin! I tried the money thing already, just as you described, and while it showed promise, I don't think he's quite old enough to really grasp the concept of money, so it didn't really motivate any more than, say, a sticker would. :P And the denying of activities does NOT work on him. He used to LOOOOVE playing preschool games on the computer more than candy - and one day I declared that he couldn't play the computer until his morning chores were done. But it didn't bother him one bit, and I simply ended up with a DS who never ever played on the computer (I tried this for like a MONTH!) I even denied him the priviledge of playing with ANY toys before doing his morning chores, but he would just occupy himself in other ways. He's very adaptable. AND very sneaky as well. And I don't want to have to HOVER over him to make sure he's not disobeying me behind my back when I try to enforce these things, so the fear of a spanking has been my best tool SO FAR... But if it's really WORKING, you'd think I'd be having to use it less and less each time, and I'm not. *shrug*

YOU'VE GOT MY WHEELS TURNING, GIRLS! THANK YOU!
Still open for more advice - always, always! :D

To me it sounds pretty much like normal 5 year old behavior, but he justs need more structure than another 5 year old might (if punishments aren't fixing the problem then I will venture to say that he may just be forgetful, not necessarily defiant.) Maybe write up a big check-list on posterboard and hang it in his room; list his morning chores (using pictures if needed) so he can visualize what is expected of him, that way you are being pro-active without hovering. It may also help to be flexible with the time-frame he has to finish his chores; he may respond better to having the freedom of making his own "chore schedule" as long as he has it done by a certain time. Its tough when a parent is more schedule-oriented and the child is free-spirtited (or vice versa), so working with his nature is a great way to make sure his chores get done without turning mornings into battles :lol:.

I took care of my younger brother when we were growing up (long story) and he was always lazy about hygene at around 4 or 5 years old, so I drew a pictorial check list of what he needed to and hung it in the bathroom. It was just pictures of a boy washing his hands and face, brushing his teeth, etc. and it really helped him a lot.

Hi, just wondering if you've had any luck with your ds so far?

Thanks for checking back! We're making quite a bit of progress with some natural consequences I've found... He has until 9:30am to get dressed, make his bed, and brush his teeth. If he doesn't make his bed, I'll take away his comforter for a night. If he doesn't brush his teeth, then I'll brush his teeth myself, but with baking soda instead of yummy toothpaste. And regardless of if he's dressed or in his pajamas, we're going to take a trip out to the mailbox at that time each morning to check yesterday's mail - and it's quite cold here right now. :P I explained all these things to him in detail, and you should of SEEEN how intently he listened to me as I layed out the stakes for him, and how ENTHUSIASTICALLY he did his chores the next few days after that. I've barely even had to remind him to get them done each morning, to boot! I'm going to stick to my guns on this one and make sure he really gets this down so I can move on from there. I'm awfully encouraged and appreciate ALL your advice!!! :D

I'm so glad its gotten better!! Great job Mama!