I just wanted to start a thread for those of us who do not spank to discuss the different approaches to discipline, the guiding of our children which doesnt include physical reprimands. Ive been reading and praying about this for some time and the Lord has convicted me about it personally.

Im interested in Grace Based Discipline. Im not interested in arguing the points between GBD or the use of spankings. I just know that there are many methods out there when it comes to raising our kids and I wanted to open this discussion a bit without interupting the other threads going on about it. (because I dont want an arguement about it and I DO NOT want to have to move this thread to Controvercial Topics.)

So Grace Based Discipline... any thoughts?

I used to spank. I felt horrible after doing it but felt it must be right because James Dobson says it is, my parents did it and many many other people say imply its the only way.

I began to go with my gut feeling and felt God saying to me ' Gen, do I treat you like that?' Over and over in my way of dealing with my children, spanking, punitive measures to get the behaviour I wanted, God would interupt my thoughts and wisper 'But do I treat you like that?'

My answer would always be no. I looked to how Jesus treated me, with Grace and love and mercy and realized that in my dealing with my own children I had no idea how to treat them that way. If I couldnt deal with my own children with the grace and mercy and gentle guidance that my Lord treats me with, how could I treat anyone that way? I saw the humiliation in my daughters eyes that last time I spanked her and I promised them I would never do it again. Its been tempting but with God's help I havent. Ive started gently leading them, talking them thru things.

For example.... Julie is almost 7. She should remember when she has been told to do something or not to do something. The other day she was riding her sisters bike and asked to go where she wasnt allowed to go with a friend who was a bit bigger than her. I told her she wasnt allowed. Later that day the bike was missing. I asked where it was and she had left it where she wasnt allowed to go!! In my past life she would have been spanked, Im sure her dad would have liked to have spanked her. I dealt with it by telling her to go to her room after getting the bike and bringing it in. I could tell she was frightened of being in trouble and she was very sorry for what she had done. She went to her room got her pjs on and sat in her bed, very sorry. I let her talk about what she had done and explained why I needed her to do what I tell her to do. She said she was sorry and cried and gave me a hug. I didnt see the humiliation in her eyes after getting a spank, I witnessed her natural response of repentance. and that was beautiful to see.

Ill be posting some links about Grace Based Discipline (GBD) when I get a chance.

I get the feeling that this is such a new concept to christian parenting and find it ironic that I havent come across it until now, 8 years after becoming a christian.

The reason for my posting about this is not to start a debate about spanking vs gbd. I wanted to find out if there were any like minded parents here and until recently I hadnt even considered this as a way of raising my kids.

I am interested in other methods. I have already noticed that spanking Abby sometimes does not work because she will hit me back. And I don't like that.

Do you find that your girl is as well behaved (or better) since using GBD?

Does it just mean that you send her to her room and then come in later and explain why what she did was wrong? Do you tell her you love her when you come back in and do you ask her to apologize or anything? Or do you just wait for her to apologize on her own?
Do you give her a specific amount of time in her room?

I havent got it all worked out yet. Im still learning myself. On this occassion my intention was to give her some space to think about what she did and to give me a chance to think about how to handle it. I will do time outs, I am firm and I make it clear that they dont have a choice when it comes to doing what I ask of them. A big thing for me is to remember that they are just kids and kids make mistakes, just like us adults and that they should get the same response from me as parent that I get from God. When I make a mistake God doesnt smack me or shout at me, he wispers gently to me and sometimes has to remind me over and over again that I am doing something wrong. I use tactics like removing them from a situation. Today Josh wanted me to push him on the swing. He is five. first of all I have learned from my 7yo twins that if I push them forever on the swing they will always need me to push them on the swing. Second I wasnt feeling to great (cramps, pms) and I wanted to sit down so I said I wasnt going to push him. He was quite upset about it. Also Sophie offered to push him. he declined. In the end he wouldnt stop winging so we had to leave. He started crying and almost threw a fit but I firmly said to him, 'You are not going to carry on acting like that.' We took the long scenic route home bc dad was sleeping, I let him have a few minutes to get it out of his system and then said enough was enough. I was going to let him sit down on his own because I didnt want to hear him yellin. I walked away. Oh and I said, 'If you would like a hug when you are feeling better just let me know, cause Id like a hug.' after a few minutes he calmed down and we had a nice little explore together in the woods near our house. He would have gotten a spank for giving me a hard time in the past.

My kids are better behaved lately, thinking about it. Im learning to understand them better.

Ill try to find some articles that Ive found somewhere.

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/articles/crystal/gbd.php

http://aolff.org/My_Homepage_Files/Page32.html

There are two that I found searching thru my faves. Ill have to do a more through search to find the really good articles Im looking for.

Gen, I think this sounds awesome and I want to check out the sites when I get a moment.

I too have had the conviction of treating my children as God treats us. God does discipline us if we do wrong and he does guide us into the right direction. And that is what I want to do with my children. I have often asked myself...how would God handle this situation.

I have to confess that I have reverted to actual spanking because all the other methods I was using was not getting my daughter's attention in the midst of her furry. We do time outs and that has been a huge help but she is young (21 months) and you can't really rationalize with her yet. She gets into these screaming fits and the only way I have found to get her attention is to swat her once on the leg. She usually then looks up at me and then I can get her attention to tell her to calm herself down. She then gets a time out (the time of her age). Before she can get out I ask her if she is going to have the correct behavior I am seeking ( no whining, no screaming, being nice, etc). My thinking on this approach was that sometimes God has to get our attention...and I don't spank her other then when she is in a furry...all other methods are time outs, consequential reprocutions (if she makes a mess, she cleans it up type of things).

I am hoping that as she gets older I can do more of the GBD with talking it through and giving her time to respond or make better choices. In fact I even often tell her to make better choices. If she is screaming, I will first try to say Abigail, screaming is not appropriate, you have one chance to make a better choice and stop screaming. Otherwise, you will get a time out. or something like that.

I would love to chat more about this to get other ideas. Especially with the younger ones since Nathan is just 6 months and will be going there fast. I hear alot of parents say their children are strong willed and I understand that some are but in God's eyes we are pretty strong willed to I am sure. Anyway, where I am going with that is that Abigail has challenged my barrier since 8 months...some people would say how could an 8 month old challenge a barrier but she did and it would take too long to get into it all, but what I am saying is that I had to learn that as a first child, she wants to know who is in charge...and she will check that over and over not out of being disrepectful or misbehaving but out of a genuon need to know who is in control. Since I have been able to recognize that behavior in her...it makes alot of her barrier checking easier to deal with. So I totally agree with knowing your children. Each one is different.

Okay, enough rambling...I have to go clean my house...we are having guest for dinner but I definately would like to go farther with this.

I have considered the no-spank method of parenting; I don't really know much about it, but will check out the links provided to learn more... I think part of me feels compelled to use spanking because my son is too young yet to reason with. I have to be honest with myself here and also mention that his not having a father, I think, leads me to being a little harder on him than I would be if he had the benefit of paternal authority? For some reason, it seems that when a child's father speaks, they jump into action, and when dad backs mom, it also helps. Again, I have to be honest here (and it's not always easy). My ds has been having a hard time sleeping in his room; usually I wake up and find that he has crawled in bed with me- lately, I have been redirecting him back to bed, being very gentle about it, but firm. Last night, he just wouldn't settle... he was half asleep so I picked him up and sat with him in my recliner, reassuring him and telling him he is doing a good job being big and sleeping in his own bed. He was crying quietly and- this is the part that hurts my heart- he said almost under his breath "and you're spanking me too" I haven't spanked him when redirecting him to sleep in his bed, but the fact is that is what he was expecting following my gentle reassurance... It kinda shook me and now this morning this thread.... I'll be watching it. I think the benefit of knowing I am "putting myself out there" makes me feel m,ore accountable and since starting this discussion with you all, my son and I have had better days/less discipline. I don't believe in coincidence, so thanks.

Other people have encouraged me to spank, sometimes using the verse from the Bible (Proverbs 13: something) that "he who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him" So, I guess that is what set me out on thsi quest to find a way to exercise careful spanking... I am confused and praying that God will lead me to the right way to address my son's misbehavior/disrespect. Do you think age has anything to do with what is effective? I will check the links and see what I can find there. Again, thank you for the insight.[/i]

I don't want to cause any problems since I do believe in spanking but I wanted to share a great book I read called Shepherding a Childs Heart. By Ted Tripp.

Because no matter how you discipline it is all about the heart. Our goal is teach them about God and that we are sinners in need of a Savior.

I am careful to NOT just go off of one scripture or even two...especially Proverbs because I have heard they are more suggested ways of living not rules which is what most people take them as. I would say the idea behind that scripture is more of if you let your child off the hook when they have done something wrong, then you are not loving your child. God doesn't ignore our misdeeds...we do have consequences!

Like I said before, I do spank...but I want to have a Godly take on all my discipline! I think it is too easy to get mad and spank, or you don't know what to do so you spank, or just because you need to vent you spank. I have seen all types of parenting styles in friends and family and when people look at the way I parent, I want it to be another extension of God's hand...

That of course would be the ideal...I am by far not there yet!

I think that that verse in Proverbs doesn't mean specifically to spank. The rod is what Shepherds guide their sheep with isn't it? So it's supposed to mean that we should guide our children, teach them which way to go etc... Well, that's what I think. I used to think the same thing... that it means to spank them if they are naughty. But even my pastor has said that he does not think it is specifically referring to spanking.

I have the same issue right now with Abby just being too young for GBD or even really for Time Out. She does not understand what I am saying. So I probably do only have the option of spanking or redirecting her right now... probably by the time she is 2 1/2 she will understand enough that I can talk to her about why she is going to her room and what she did wrong and all the rest.
I am planning on potty training her next month (starting to) but am a little worried that it will be a waste of time since she doesn't really understand much of what I say.

Yeah, I thinkyou're right; I read more today about GBD and found that the verse doesn't mean spanking... I was happy to pass that info. along to my mom, (she is from the "old school" and had always assumed it meant spanking as well). The link Gen provided was very interesting and helpful. I have not come to a clear cut 'no more spanking' conclusion but I am trying to be mindful of exercising careful discipline. I am thankful for this forum and the insights provided.

There was an article that I was looking for that said something like 'if a shepherd beats his sheep he'll have no flock!' That stuck with me.

I do think that for young children there is a way of being gentle and grace based as opposed to using smacking. I think alot of it comes down to the fact that we expect too much from very small children (or children in general). You cant expect a 2 1/2 yo to do what you ask when you ask it when they dont understand what you are saying. For children that young or younger (and in some cases older) imho, removing things from their vision when they are grabbing things, for instance, is better than smacking. I smacked my kids when they were this young and really wish I had come across this info back then. Looking back, I cant think of a reason a small child would need spanking.

Not judging here! Please Dont get me wrong. This is my own personal opionion. And my own personal conviction. I know the pressure this sort of subject puts on a parent and I want to avoid doing that.

I stayed up late last night and read the websites. I love the concepts she brings to light.

I never thought I would be an early child spanker but I just came to a spot where I did not know what else to do. AND even though I understand what she is saying, I still don't know WHAT I am to do to help my daughter gain control when she is in a furry.

We are also struggling with screaming right now.

Any suggestions on fits of furry and screaming...how to deal with them and teach her more sefl control at the age of 22 months?

I dont have any tips except have patience. My son went thru the same thing and we later found out that he had hearing problems and that was probably why he was acting out. He couldnt speak very well for a long time and he was very frustrated. We also had a lot of upheaval in our lives at the time and that made it worse for him. I dealt with it by letting him have his time of screaming. I know that sounds... well I dont know how that sounds but I just had compassion on him. I waited for him to calm down. He had another time similar to that one where he was getting violent with me when he started nursery and because of a change of circumstances I cant go into here we started spanking again and nipped it in the bud. It was frightening because he would do it and be in a rage out in the street (we dont drive) and he could have run out into the street. For a while I was afraid of having him with me out without his dad there. There were times when we spanked and times when we didnt. I dont know what else snapped him out of it. Its funny bc I asked for help here when I first started at this site. I did other things with him. I was still firm with him. I would get to his level and tell him that he was not to be acting like this, I was the boss. Those words 'I AM THE BOSS!! NOT YOU!!' Became all it took to snap him out of it. Saying things right in their faces like 'YOU ARE NOT TO ACT LIKE THIS'.

I mean you know how you feel when you are frustrated. I feel like screaming and throwing a fit like that! And Im an adult! How must a child feel?

Saying all that.

Ive left my child in a room to themselves until they've calmed down (as long as they arent going to hurt themselves or destroy the place) and watched them about 10 minutes later happy as if nothing happened! I think it may be too much to expect that a 22 mo old can learn self control in a space of minutes or weeks or months. God is still teaching us self control as adults. I think it may be an area of patient endurance and gentle guidance.

What I did was vow never to spank. Then I knew I couldnt have kids who were running riot so I had to find other ways of guiding them, firmly if needed. For me I find that when I remain calm it blows over much more quickly.

I know how frustrated you must feel. Making a change like this can make situations more frustrating and end up making you feel like a failure. Dont let that happen. If it is a way that God is leading you, he will supply your need. Its when we feel weakest and call out to him that his power is most evident in our lives.

Can't speak from experience :wink: , but I like the take in this book, if you can find a copy:
http://www.christian-mommies.com/special-features/book-reviews/parenting-the-heart-of-your-child/

She lays out a sort of "series of steps" verses any ultimate yays or nays on any one type of discipline.
On the boys front "That's My Son by Rick Johnson" gave some discipline info.

Thank you Gen for starting this and thank you all for your wisdom. My 11mo is just starting to test the waters so I will definitely be following this. She understands no and I praise her when she listens, but I think I need to work more on redirecting after saying no twice.

That's true Gen. Unfortunately we cannot move everything out of Abbys reach. She is a climber. :roll: She can reach the second to top shelf of our bookshelves in the sitting room and they are nearly to the ceiling.
She can reach everything else except the top shelves and the stuff in the wallunit. :shock:

When mine were little I swatted them on the behind ,....I do not think it hurt them any..... dunno? [whatthink]
But it got there attention thats for sure
Now that they are getting older I can talk to them and take priviliges away ...Grounding and that kind of thing...I guess it really is a personal parenting choice ...good luck with that
[lovingsmiley] [prayer]

That's true Gen. Unfortunately we cannot move everything out of Abbys reach. She is a climber. :roll: She can reach the second to top shelf of our bookshelves in the sitting room and they are nearly to the ceiling.
She can reach everything else except the top shelves and the stuff in the wallunit. :shock:

Angela was/is like this..We have a little space between the ceiling and the kitchen cabinets where all the drugs and scissors etc.. go..Even standing on the kitchen cabinet she can't reach it...believe me, she's tried in the past....If you don't have that, have your hubby install a lock on a designated cabinet or drawer and keep that key in a secret place..

My sister had to lock a drawer of meds and knives..her 3 kids were constantly overdosing and cutting each other :lol:

I come from a long line of spankers and downright abuse..I've really been struggling with Angela since she turned 7 and I did resort to spanking the other day..

I was under the impression that it worked, but the next day she played me..She totally played me in every way imaginable..

I'm going to really work on this..I'm going to go through and study those articles you've left and really pray about this..

I genuinely think as long as a parent is guiding their child and not being slack in this area (Guide a child in the way he should go and he will not turn from it) God honours that and will help and guide us with it.

I do think also there is no RIGHT method that fits every child that is why I don't agree with ramrod concepts like GKGW (it was really popular in Australia for a while to teach this concept).

This is a subject I have been going back and forth on for some time now. I really like the idea of GBD. It makes sense. However, the whole spanking thing is a hard pattern to break, especially if it's the popular way of discipline amongst christians and is what you have been taught. I'm trying hard not to spank as I have discovered it really doesn't work for my oldest. I mean, how do you respond to a 6 year old who after spanking says mommy, hitting is mean! I know you are supposed to explain why and talk it over first, I find myself however spanking in the heat of the moment which is the total wrong approach and it just teaches my daughter that it's ok to hit when you are angry and frustrated. I know because now I see her acting out that way toward my youngest. I don't believe there is one right way to discipline as each child is different. I think that you should pray and ask God for guidance on a continuing basis and you will know in your heart what is right. As far as other tactics I've used, time outs with a follow up discussion, loss of privilages and going to bed early are things I have done.

GKGW (it was really popular in Australia for a while to teach this concept).

Whats this, Ive never heard of it.

I have to say that when I decided not to hit my kids anymore, our relationships changed. Spanking didnt change the behaviour that I didnt like, not spanking and dealing with their actions in patience and with compassion, the same kind of descipline the Lord uses with me, doesnt always see an immediate result. But other factors come into play as to why my child is acting that way. I have seen our family grow closer and grow in respect for one another since I stopped spanking and thinking about how differently to handle a situation.

I have always felt guility spanking my children. But like you said Dr Dobson said it was ok, so it must be right? I don't think so anymore. I mean it doesn't make sense to spank a child for doing something to another child. Isn't that repaying evil for evil?-something I tell my children they should not do according to the Bible. I am so glad I found this posting. I will be watching it to see what you all have to say. Thank You!

Hey Michellle, welcome to cmoms [welcomehi]

I used to spank but began to feel differently about it some time ago. It marked a change in the way I deal with my kids. It was actually easy to stop. If I gave a slap without thinking (like I used to) Id say sorry and my Julie would say 'its okaaay'. Bless her.

I recommend the book Grace Based Parenting by Tim Kimmel. It's awesome. I find it difficult to discipline my son, Ryan. He's almost 4 but is more like a 2-year-old. Nothing really seems to work except that I spend a lot of time with him. This can be difficult with a new baby, but when he gets the attention he deserves he is such a good little boy. But when he acts up he won't listen and starts hitting me. I think part of it is his frustration with inability to communicate well (he is speech delayed). Dobson had said spanking should be used for special circumstances (like if your kid runs out into the street) and never used in anger. I sometimes find myself getting angry and I feel awful for when I do spank him like that. It doesn't seem to work anyway. Different kids have different needs for discipline. I just wish I could find what Ryan needs. And remember, pick your battles!

I just went searching for this thread becuase here it is almost two years later, and I am still struggling with effective discipline, no longer only with my ds but my 2 yo dd as well. I woke up this morning in tears ad a prayerful state of being. I spanked both my kids last night before bed. As mentioned originally, my son still struggles wit hsleeping in his own bed; he seems genuinely insecure and has a really hard time falling asleep there. Even if I sit with him until he is asleep, he wakes a short time later and comes to my room. Last night, I allowed him to go to my room to fall asleep, as his sister was ready for bed quite a while before him. Once I had almost patted her to sleep, he came to the door and asked if I would rub hi sback. I was on my way to do so, when I discovered that he had taken one of my shower gels and squirted it all over my nigthstand, the floor, my pillow, etc. So I sent him to his own room. I hate making him feel as though his room/bed is a place of punishment and I know it doesn't help his comfort level, but I just didn't knwo what to do. I ended up spanking him for getting oob several times, and my dd also for getting out of bed (she was woken up by all this). The words that Gen originally wrote that when we mess up God doesn't yell at us or smack us has stuck in my mind all this time. I think I have a disconnect there, in that I do feel that God has smacked me and shouted at me; I have a pretty angry/resentful perspective that I see carrying over to my dealings with my own kids, and I know that I need to shake it. Sometimes I wonder if I need professional intervention to sort it all out and gain a healthier point of view, so that I can be a better mom. My prayer this morning is that I see the grace of God, that I focus on the fruits of the spirit (as menitone din one of the links in the op) and that I approach my kids in a Godly manner, without anger, without resentment, but with peace, love, joy, kindness, self control (this one is big). A few eeks ago, my son ad I sat down and established some basic house rules. The plan was clear for discipline- one warning, then time out. Unfortunately, I have already strayed from it quite a bit, allowing other things, other people (like my neice's children) to interfere. I am so grateful to have been woken up early, as I have the chance now to get my heart right before my kids get up. I think I will make pancakes for them and let them know that today, I am trying to be a more gentle and loving mom. If only I could have this time every morning to crunchs things out in prayer and "fix" my attitude before they get up...

Andra, I dont have alot of time right now but I wanted to quickly respond. I have days like that too. I have the same anger issues you described. I have spanked my kids since 'making this commmitment' but I felt they really really deserved it. Im not completely against spanking. I just dont use it as the main form of discipline. If they get spanked, they know they were wrong. And its not an issue. In the last two years I think between my three they've been spanked maybe only 2 or 3times, if that. Dont feel bad for doing it. I think its about setting boundaries and making a mess like that might just have been a boundary your son crossed for you. I know that God has never had me whacked or whacked me himself, my dh feels similar. We have both deserved it from time to time but He has always dealt with me with grace. That is NOT to say that I do not suffer from the consequences of my own sinful actions and even the sins of those closest to me. Do not beat yourself up about it. You are a good mum. ok. gotta go and get my dd early from school.

Maybe if we talk about what areas of discipline you are struggling with? Because kids will test the boundaries no matter what 'kind' of discipline we use with them.

gen

This is an interesting thread - I hadn't seen it before. GBD is something I've recently heard about and have done some reading on - I really like the emphasis on having patience with your children, basically "doing to others(your children) as you would have them to unto you", showing them love. I do still spank Renee on occasion, but it's a lot less than it used to be, and I think she responds to me better when I use other discipline methods. One thing I don't really understand about GBD - it doesn't seem to have "painful" consequences. Going to a "comfort corner" when you've misbehaved doesn't seem like much of a deterrent. I'm not saying I want to cause my children pain, but I want them to learn that sin does have consequences. My sins cause me pain and consequences, even though God loves me and is gracious to me. Also, in adult life there are painful consequences if we don't do the best thing - we run out of money if wer'e lazy, we lose our job if we constantly show up late or don't perform well. So I want my children to know consequences, administered in a loving way. My favorite method of discipline is the logical consequence; ie, "If you jump on the bed again, you must get down. If you throw your toy, Mommy will take it away." sometimes there isn't a great logical consequence, then I have to do time out or last resort, spank. As Renee gets older, I'm hoping I'll be able to do more reasoning and talking with her too but that's difficult at this age sometimes.
Hope I didn't make this too controversial or offend anyone - that's not my intention at all. I'm kinda putting into words what my scattered thoughts on the subject have been lately. And also, I KNOW that every child is different, every parent is different, and every situation is different, so i do NOT want to judge anyone else's discipline style or make it sound like what works for me should work for everyone.

Yeah. I understand what you are saying about the 'consequences' and I have to say that i got the 'idea' of gbd and ran with it. I didnt do any further research on it, just the initial reading so we do not do the comfy corner thing. They go to their room often. Thats mostly a 'calm down' technique for everyone involved. I see my kids as my disciples. Well they are obviously Jesus' disciples but God gave them to me to discipline or disciple and thats how I see them. Walking alongside them. The things I used to spank for are so trivial now and just needed patience. My kids rarely do anything deserving of a spank. And that is NOT to say they are perfect children. Im learning to deal with each moment individually. I dont know how this will work for younger children bc i started this when mine were a bit older (5ish). Reasoning just cant happen with a toddler, lol. For me, its not about following a formula, or a strategy or a set of manmade parenting rules. Its about developing a good relationship with my kids. I dont mean a buddybuddy relationship either. I mean a healthy parent/child relationship that so many families, in my area anyway, are really really lacking. There has to be a balance, for us. Dh and I can be very hotheaded, angry individuals. That was getting in the way of understanding our children. I had to get it out of my system, the anger and all that. I had to not have spanking as something to vent my anger so I had to leave it well alone.

I also think that every 'stage' of our kids growing up there are transition periods. Those sneak up on you and all of a sudden nothing makes sense anymore with a particular child. That can be frustrating until I realize whats happening and adjust or give them the understanding and direction they need.
Andrea, my Julie does that on a regular basis, making messes like that. I realized its kinda what she's like. She's a bit dizzy like me, and flits from one thing to the next without another thought. Previously she would have gotten a spank for it all. Its taken time and patience but first of all the mess doesnt bother me anymore. What I have had to do is teach her respect for things like my make up (which is what she would use to make a mess with). She also eats way too much salt and sneaks it when she thinks Im not looking. I took her to the side and discussed with her how bad it is for her but also that if she doesnt stop doing that priveleges are going to be taken away. She will no longer be allowed to be alone with food, if it comes to it. I might have to treat her like a toddler and prepare everything for her until she gets out of that habit. Its all about patience and diligent instruction for me.

Thanks for reviving this thread Andrea. I hope you find what works for you. Dont take my word on anything tho. Seek the Lord about it. Im sorry if I caused confusion by bringing it up in the first place.

gen

Great topic. I practice GBD. It not only felt right in my soul, I also firmly believe it's biblical & is a wonderful model in how God deals with us!
www.aolff.org is a great website for further info. As well as GOYBparenting.org (that stands for Get Off Your Butt Parenting) :-)

"Grace Based Discipline" is a great place to start , especially if you're coming off of punitive teachings like Tripp, Pearls, Ezzo's, or even Dobson.

Anyway, the biggest fear with ending punitive parenting & using gentle discipline, is that our kids will become unruly & we'll be considered permissive. But if someone is truly following GBD - then that simply cannot happen! It's all about being KIND and FIRM. And giving children boundaries.

Thanks for the feedback and the links, kalihi; to answer your question, Gen, we don't really have any specific areas of misbehavior/discipline that are a particualr struggle; well I guess if I think about it bedtime and our mornings are usually times of excess stress. I just find myself feeling so mean sometimes, like I try to think that I can spank "lovingly" but the result is more tears, more upsetness, more frustration. I haven't really followed any set plan (such as Dobson and others that were mentioned); I have just been "winging it."

The last couple days I have really been trying to remain in a prayerful mindframe and to ask God to show me where things go awry, how I can go from having a great time with the kids, to losing my cool and resorting to spanking out of anger. Something I was reflecting on last nigth was how my mom disciplined us as children. In a way, it was fear-based, and sadly, a lot of that came from being taught to fear my father (who really isn't such a bad egg:) Because my kids don't have their dad in their lives at all, I think I feel a little helpless at times and I do become angry at it, it really rocks my faith sometimes. But aside from the fear factor, my mom is also one who will withdraw from her children (as kids and adults) and I was just really looking hard at that and seeing that my turning to anger (be it yelling, spanking, slamming doors, etc.) is really a form of withdrawing my true self from my kids.

Last night, I did spank at bedtime but in a very calm manner and not because of where my son wanted to sleep but his attidtude and refusal and disruptiveness to his sister. I just really don't see a timeout working at bedtime as it would prolong him staying up. I do think our routine varies a bit too much in the evening. My kids have extremely dry skin and I don't bathe them every night during the winter. I do revoke storytime as a punishment and I don't think that is the best idea. After spanking twice calmly (bare bottom, with my son expecting it, rather than just flying off the handle spanking) I sat with my son and explained that I just needed him to fall asleep, so that his sister could get to sleep and so I could clean my room. Of my whole house, my room tends to be the most neglected and I really wanted to get in there and get it clean last night. Anyhow, I am rambling :) Again, this morning, I got an early start and not being rushed and approaching the day in a joyful manner really helped our morning to go a lot smoother. My ds said when we got to school "what a nice day we have all been having," and he was right. I thik in this particular struggle, prevention of angry outburst is key. Part of that is trying to really let go of my personal feeling sand anger and focus on daily joy and blessing. It feels so good to just put it out there to you guys. I guess I just want it to be so that whatever form of discipline I use at any time is chosen carefully, and executed with love, kindness, peace, joy and self control, and part of that for me is to just relax and don't let the small stuff make my blood boil. I am encouraged by the results I am already seeing and feel confident that I will continue to see an abundance of blessing and joy as I truly seek to remedy the overall area of disciplining my kids. Thanks again!

I'm trying hard not to spank as I have discovered it really doesn't work for my oldest. I mean, how do you respond to a 6 year old who after spanking says mommy, hitting is mean! This also really hit home, as my ds, when he is crying will sometimes say, under his breath, sort of shaking his head, in a genuine, not fresh/defiant way "this is not what nice mommies do" and then there I am telling him that nice brothers do and don't do behavior x and y... The thing is, most of the undesirable things he does, he has learned straight from me, so I am thinking why not model what I am looking for and take the pressure off him to establish the mood around here?

One mroe after-though- if anyone has any of the GBD books just lying around colleting dust and would want to let me borrow it, I wuold be happy to pay postage and send it back afterwards. My library card is no good as I owe them money from when I moved and lost some movies of theirs and just can't spend the cash at the bookstore. If not, I am sure I can work with the websites you have provided. Thanks!

Oh Andrea, Bless your heart. I so love and admire the way you are being intentional about your parenting. You as a single mom have a big job and by the sounds of it you are doing great. Parenting is hard, intentional parenting, or diligence in parenting is not easy to keep up anyway, no matter what your circumstances are. Single, married, whatever! its hard work. I love how you recognise your anger as stemming from frustrations you face and that you refuse to let them rule you. Thats a good mom, and a good christian, if you ask me. To me a good christian recognises their need for Christ to do a work in them. I am so much like you, in being angry. We both have probably faced circumstances in our lives that have made us very angry. We are both trying our best to put all that behind us and be the best moms we can be, with the help of Christ. It actually does feel good to be able to talk about all that with someone who does understand. Ive come to realize that a spank, in and of itself isnt that bad. For us it is a very very last resort and Ive also realized that in some cases it may be necessary. I can remember thinking about my ds defiance and self pity, blaming his sisters when he was clearly in the wrong and my instant thought was 'Im sorry but he needs a spank'. He was 6 at the time. I think its about being calm and, for me, letting the Holy Spirit lead me in ALL of my dealings with the kids. Ive been stressed out to the max over the later 3/4 of 2007. I didnt resort to shouting or anything violent but I did withdraw and I was in a right state. My kids watched more tv in the last 8months than they have in the last 8 years combind, lol. But Im slowly coming out of it. Andrea, I used to really really lose it with Sophie. She was so clingy and wingey, whiney and she still is at 8 1/2. I was mega stressed out and livign in a women's refuge and I can remember lashing out at her. I would just need to get to sleep, with all of them in the same room and I swear if I heard the word 'mum?' even wispered ONE MORE TIME... Im gonna hurt someone. and it happened and I was like a raving monster. So that sheds some light on my 'anger issues'. Dh and I were in agreement at first about our right as Christian Parents to Spank our kids whenever we wanted!! We took pride in that. In the refuge they had a 'No-Spanking' policy and that is when I first had conviction. As I reread my journal from that time I see I realized it back then and wanted to address it. Now dh and I both agree that we dont need to spank.

this is a bit long winded and Ive got plenty more to say but it might be boring... lol. I just wanted to encourage you. Whatever 'methods' you use, it looks like you just want to be the best mom. Thats all I want too. I just wanted to share some of my own struggles to hopefully show you arent at all alone. I was kind of hoping this thread could stay alive so we can talk about our struggles, no judgement or anything like that. I know there have been otther sites ive visited about gbd but I really wanted to start a 'support group' here, at my cmoms home, where I already know everyone and I feel comfortable, not starting again in another community. Anyway. Sophie's up now (way too early, its not even 630 yet!!). I look forward to talking more about this with yous!!!

gen

Andrea I PM'd you

I just went searching for this thread becuase here it is almost two years later, and I am still struggling with effective discipline, no longer only with my ds but my 2 yo dd as well. I woke up this morning in tears ad a prayerful state of being. I spanked both my kids last night before bed. As mentioned originally, my son still struggles wit hsleeping in his own bed; he seems genuinely insecure and has a really hard time falling asleep there. Even if I sit with him until he is asleep, he wakes a short time later and comes to my room. Last night, I allowed him to go to my room to fall asleep, as his sister was ready for bed quite a while before him. Once I had almost patted her to sleep, he came to the door and asked if I would rub hi sback. I was on my way to do so, when I discovered that he had taken one of my shower gels and squirted it all over my nigthstand, the floor, my pillow, etc. So I sent him to his own room. I hate making him feel as though his room/bed is a place of punishment and I know it doesn't help his comfort level, but I just didn't knwo what to do. I ended up spanking him for getting oob several times, and my dd also for getting out of bed (she was woken up by all this). The words that Gen originally wrote that when we mess up God doesn't yell at us or smack us has stuck in my mind all this time. I think I have a disconnect there, in that I do feel that God has smacked me and shouted at me; I have a pretty angry/resentful perspective that I see carrying over to my dealings with my own kids, and I know that I need to shake it. Sometimes I wonder if I need professional intervention to sort it all out and gain a healthier point of view, so that I can be a better mom. My prayer this morning is that I see the grace of God, that I focus on the fruits of the spirit (as menitone din one of the links in the op) and that I approach my kids in a Godly manner, without anger, without resentment, but with peace, love, joy, kindness, self control (this one is big). A few eeks ago, my son ad I sat down and established some basic house rules. The plan was clear for discipline- one warning, then time out. Unfortunately, I have already strayed from it quite a bit, allowing other things, other people (like my neice's children) to interfere. I am so grateful to have been woken up early, as I have the chance now to get my heart right before my kids get up. I think I will make pancakes for them and let them know that today, I am trying to be a more gentle and loving mom. If only I could have this time every morning to crunchs things out in prayer and "fix" my attitude before they get up...

Hi! I don't know if we've met yet, as I'm kind of new here, but we do GBD instead of spanking and the like as well. We have 2 boys, ages almost 5 and almost 2. I always thought we'd spank, after all, that's the way dh and I were both disciplined, but with DS#1, i just knew that wasn't the right way to discipline him because of his personality, and then since then, I've been really lead by God to learn more about GBD and DH and I both agree now that that's the way to go for us.

Anyway, back on point. i wanted to make a couple of suggestions to you to help you out with your bedtime struggles. Here goes:

In your sitch, I think that spanking is exasperating your son's sitch. It sounds like he's at a point in his life where he really needs to be comforted to sleep, and needs the comfort of you being close when he is asleep. Some would say that kids should be independent and sleep in their cribs from day one. I did too when I first became a parent, but when I had a DS#1 who could not sleep alone from the day he turned 7.5 mos. old, and who had to be comforted to sleep from that point on, I finally realized the truth. I laugh about it now, but the thought that originally came to me was that I HATED it when DH was gone on a bus. trip. I couldn't sleep without him in bed next to me. I would wake up every couple of hours ALL night....after having tossed and turned for a couple of hours going to sleep. if I didn't like sleeping alone (and I was almost 30 at the time) how could I expect my 2 year old to do it?

So anyway, the following things helped dramatically for us:

#1 Come to terms with the fact that your son needs to be comforted to sleep. He's not abnormal because of it, and its not that he's purposely trying to exasperate you. He needs this right now, and its ok to give it to him. He'll still turn out good, and he'll do better with the stability that he gets from knowing you meet his needs, even with this. He will learn to comfort himself to sleep soon, but in the meantime, teach him how to do that by being there for him.

#2 It helped us to put DS's mattress on the floor in our room right next to my side of the bed. We were able to slowly transition DS out of our bed and into his own bed because he knew he was right next to mommy and daddy if he needed us. He learned to sleep on his own that way, and when he was ready to, we moved his mattress into his own room.

#3 A firm bedtime routine helped too. We do Bath, snack, story, and bedtime with prayers with daddy. I always spend a few minutes of one on one time at tuck-in time and sing DS his favorite lullabye, even now at almost 5 years old before he goes to sleep. He goes to sleep in his own bed by himself now though, so there is a light at the end of the tunnel!

#4 This one is optional, but it helped us. We let the dog sleep in his bed. He used to wake up frequently at night. He's a really sensitive, passionate little boy, and it seemed like if there was any stress, it came out in his dreams. The dog in his bed somehow eased that. We basically told him that we loved him dearly, and that we wanted to help him sleep better, and asked him what he thought of that. He loved the idea. So now, we all pray together, and the dog is the one dragging him in his bedroom at bedtime at night...somehow she knows what time it is, and if we're late, she'll get upset and want him to go to bed so she can.

Anyway, I really think that if you set your mind to not spank for these nighttime offenses, and instead focus on trying to fix the real problem for his not wanting to go to bed, which sounds like its anxiety about not wanting or being able to sleep alone, that you'll have a much more relaxed and profitable bedtime situation.

I'm not saying to be permissive just because its bedtime, but maybe saying that it would help to relax and address the issues that are actually sins, like being mean and disrespectful and let him know you don't allow that, but not spank for them, and try to let the smaller offences go...like the shower gel. Because when you think about it, shower gel is fun to squirt out of the container. It was probably a real learning experience for him because he figured out what it felt like and how it came out of the tube and what it smelled like. Yeah, it was a mess for you to clean up, but he didn't purposely use it up to make you angry...he was just being a little boy and figuring out how it worked.

If he does that again, try calmly telling him he's not allowed to use xyz without asking, and have him help you wipe it up with a wipe. When you think about it, even we as mature adult Christians still muck things up all the time, but God just patiently cleans up after us.

i know it can be frustrating, but hang in there. Comfort your lo and support him and teach him how to comfort himself to sleep. It might take longer than some others, but that's ok, this is how God made him.

What would you do with this. Its a lovely saturday morning. Ive been up since well before 6am. Im not sure what's up with this but it really winds me up. I was just sleeping on the setee, having a nap. My son was on the computer in the kitchen and Julie was "annoying him". I kept hearing my son shout 'mum, julie's annoying me'. She was humming quietly and kept putting her foot on the back of his chair making it rock while he's concentrating on his game. For about 45 minutes, I just ignored it. Because they already knew I was trying to kip. Finally I get up and tell them both to come to me and I asked what was going on. Julie was definately doing her best to annoy him and I was furious, coming out of a kip, and I wanted to throttle her. I did really want to give her a good pasteing. I didnt tho. On monday Julie and Sophie are supposed to be going on a trip with a few other students to an adventure orienteering center, indoor rock climbing etc. They were picked specially for the trip and they are very excited. I did tell Julie that she might not be going.

I have a feeling its down to attention or she wants something that the other has but she does this ALL THE TIME. She winds me up so much with this rubbish. For now I have made them clean up the kitchen (turned the computer off anyway bc it froze up). The really cheeky thing is that she asked to go on the computer after being told off for annoying him. The humming? It drives her nuts when HE does it and I hear her say 'Mum, make him stop humming'. I marvel that she carried on for 45 minutes. Every few minutes Josh said 'Mum, Julie's annoying me'. I marvel at Julie's ability to be Julie. What would you do with her? I love her to bits, she can be just like me sometimes. and boy has she perfected winding me up!! She is 8 1/2 by the way.

gen

Oh, yes. Every. Single. Day. is a day like that. So its not like this is a one time thing.

gen

Well. I calmed down. lol. I didnt lose it with her. I just said 'you might not be going on monday'. By the end of the day she came up to me and wispered 'I think you have to tell me something'. I had forgotten all about it, lol. She said 'You have to tell me if Im allowed to go on Monday?' I said 'of coarse youre allowed to go. it wasnt that big of a deal but do you know why I was so angry?' She said she did and it was bc I was trying to sleep. She was careful all day not to annoy anymore and I think she completely understood the situation. See, if I had spanked her, I would have spanked her again by the end of the day and it simply wouldnt have helped. And she will do it again. Tomorrow or the next day and I would have had to spank her for the same offense in the name of consistancy. It just isnt worth it. To me. For me, it made perfect sense. Later on, I was doing something I know I should not be doing. The Lord reminded me of how he's bearing with me, walking me thru this. Not condoning the behaviour but willing to walk me out of the habit. Swearing, smoking, eating the wrong foods, you name it, I deserve a whack just as much as my Julie for continuing to do those same annoying, 'bad for you' things. Does this make sense to anyone?

gen

OH!! What really struck me with this particular situation is the fact that Joshua didnt whack her himself!!! She was so annoying. Rocking the chair with her foot, and humming quietly behind his head for a good 30 to 45 minutes... I am impressed with how my 7yo dealt with it!! Thats telling! He was trying to concentrate on his computer game and he just kept calmly repeating, in the same tone, 'mum, julie's annoying me'. LOL. Never shouting, never shoving her, or crying or whinging. that struck me as saying we must be doing something right.

gen

Sorry I have missed the past couple posts. First, Mo, the things you wrote really struck me, brought a tear to my eyes actually because I think I have known all along that my son just needs me, but somehow, have made it in my mind not okay, I wrote about my mom because I think it is a learned reaction, if something is too big, too heavy, makes you feel overwhelmed, you just drop out of it. I'm crying now because it is really hard to think of what I have been going through with my ds as being like that. You know, the other day, I was talking to my best friend and I said, you know, I should just get a king size bed and be done with it, lol. I think I wanted my son to establish a sleep routine long before my dd would be realizing that hey, he's in mama's room, here I go too, oy... I did tell me ds a few nights ago that it is okay to sleep in my bed, that he can start sleeping in his own when he is ready. It's kinda like potty-training with him, it didn't really happen until I gave up and left it up to him. Gen, I can totally relate to the kind of behavior you described, that deliberate, gonna set out to ruin (in my case my dd's day) and grouch and stomp around the house. The more active times of day is when I do a bit better with controlling my anger and displining effectively; of course M-F we are at school, but during our home time, we do pretty well keeping busy. As I have been trying to calm down over the past several days, I have been realizing that my ds is sometimes just a very angry little boy, and his being upset over things isn't always him being "naughty." I sort of feel like our struggles, the yelling, the anger, is something I have created over the years and it is hard to think of "undoing it" but my ds has noticed a change, he has said a couple times over the weekend, 'mommy, you're not mad' or 'I like when you talk to me in your nice voice'. Anyhow, I have my godson (9) and his uncle (12) here this weekend and they are anxious for me to make some french toast. It really is so nice to have you guys to talk this all out with. Oh, and Gen, I also know what you mean about those proud moments when I see my ds talking to my dd in a kind manner, rather than lashing out (which he also does plenty of); I really shower him with praise when he does that, oh and my little dd, was telling her baby doll the other day 'warning, time out', hehe.

Andrea, I cant remember how old you said your ds was buy my son went thru a very very angry stage when he was between the ages 2 to4. He would actually hit and kick and scream at me. It took a good long time for him to grow out of that stage. We did spank back then as well and it was part of what made me realize it wasnt working. Im glad we have other people to talk to here about it too.

gen

My ds is 4.5, will be 5 in May; I think so much of his anger is understandable. I mean I look at how angry and resentful and bitter I can sometimes be, and I am an adult! Big sigh, I think the best I can do is try to connect with him frequently and check in on how is feeling, not always just whether he is doing xyz on the long list of things that I expect. I know since starting school last fall, it has begun to bother him more and more to not have a father; I know I have written about that subject on here before and I don't want to be a broken record, but I see it having some bearing on his behavior, his feelings, and at times, the way that I disipline. I have made significant progress in gaining perspective and healing the hurt, but I wonder if I have given adequate attention to how it affects him (and now, my dd who has started to notice "daddies" and at times will call out for hers. He gets very mad at her for this and will scream 'we do not have a dad!!') Now, I'm getting off track, but I soooo appreciate the feedback and encouragement; I am looking forward to learning more about GBD as a way of life/frame of mind because I can already see that my son is responding to my effort.

Well. I calmed down. lol. I didnt lose it with her. I just said 'you might not be going on monday'. By the end of the day she came up to me and wispered 'I think you have to tell me something'. I had forgotten all about it, lol. She said 'You have to tell me if Im allowed to go on Monday?' I said 'of coarse youre allowed to go. it wasnt that big of a deal but do you know why I was so angry?' She said she did and it was bc I was trying to sleep. She was careful all day not to annoy anymore and I think she completely understood the situation. See, if I had spanked her, I would have spanked her again by the end of the day and it simply wouldnt have helped. And she will do it again. Tomorrow or the next day and I would have had to spank her for the same offense in the name of consistancy. It just isnt worth it. To me. For me, it made perfect sense. Later on, I was doing something I know I should not be doing. The Lord reminded me of how he's bearing with me, walking me thru this. Not condoning the behaviour but willing to walk me out of the habit. Swearing, smoking, eating the wrong foods, you name it, I deserve a whack just as much as my Julie for continuing to do those same annoying, 'bad for you' things. Does this make sense to anyone?

gen I totally get what you mean. God is SO good to us!

W/re to your daughter and son, I SO remember being like that with my younger identical twin sis's, LOL. If I wasn't doing it to them, they were doing it to me, LOL. I remember that the parents used to have a Mustang back in the early 80's, and the back seat was a bench seat, but the middle seat was higher up (like a hump) than the 2 lower seats...this was in a car w/o seat belts before the law for them here in MN. Anyway, the parents always made me sit in between my little sis's, and I would always fall one direction or the other onto them when the car turned...on purpose... I laugh about it now, but I know it exasperated them to no end, but I did it anyway, and even though it bugged mom and dad too, LOL. I think I took pleasure in bugging them. They did the same thing to me in other ways as well, I think it was just part of being a sibling, that you tried to push their buttons on purpose to see the reaction.

We used to fight also, and i remember my mom came up with the absolute best punishment to quell that. She would make us all sit on the couch next to each other and hug each other or hold hands. That was HORRIBLE, LOL because you'd be so mad about having to do THAT, that pretty soon we'd be all talking together about how unjust mom was in making us suffer that punishment, and we didn't even realize that we'd stopped fighting, LOL. Mom laughs about that one now too.

With your son and daughter, I'd just caution you that if your son tells you that his sister is bugging him, that you should probably intervene and talk to your daughter and remove her from the situation. I know that sometimes we want to let them take care of things like that on their own, but, remember to be careful to not allow your daughter to exasperate your son to the point where he will take matters into his own hands to "fix" the problem himself because he doesn't believe you will stop her for him. As an adult, we have the impulse control to not hit that creep that bugs us at the office, but kids lack that control, so we need to help them and protect them so they don't get to the point where they feel they need to physically hurt their sibling just to get the annoyance to stop....kind of like protecting them from sinning I guess, until they have the impulse control to not do it on their own...

In that sitch, I'd guess he's telling you about it because he knows you won't let him stop her by force, and telling her to stop hasn't worked. He was probably getting to the point where he wanted to stop her physically...and you would've probably punished him for hurting her....because I've been in that sitch w/ my own sisters, lol...they yelled louder, and I got in trouble for hurting them when all I was trying to do was stop them from wrecking something of mine or stop them from continuously bugging me...they were smaller, and they'd scream the loudest, even when I hadn't touched them, (yet, I was usually planning on it, LOL...)

The thing that springs to my mind that might have worked out better for you at that moment would've been to intervene after the first time your son told you your daughter was bugging him. If you would've asked them to come to you and explain what was going on, you could've asked your daughter to play in a different room than your son, and all would've been well and you could've gone back to your nap. Sadly though, when I'm sleepy, I don't think of stuff like that, and I would've ignored it too so I could keep up the nap because after all, they weren't physically hurting each other.

Funny story: Last week, my DS#1 let his little brother into the bathroom on purpose. We have it gated off because DS#2 is an adventurer and an explorer, and I don't like him playing in the toilet or climbing cabinets to get at daddy's razor, when I'm not there to keep him safe/clean from toilet water. Anyway, I can't remember if DS#2 had actually done anything wrong or not in the bathroom, but I reacted very badly at the time. I really yelled at DS#1 for letting his little brother in the bathroom on purpose. I actually told him I was so angry with him I wanted to spank him. And he looked up at me with his sweet little face and said " But mommy, that would hurt!" I melted...he wasn't trying to do anything wrong, he just thought little brother had to use the potty, and didn't understand how dangerous it would be for little brother to have free run of the bathroom.

So then I had to apologize and let him know that we do not spank, and that I wouldn't really do that, and that i loved him....talk about feeling like a total heel...

Sorry I have missed the past couple posts. First, Mo, the things you wrote really struck me, brought a tear to my eyes actually because I think I have known all along that my son just needs me, but somehow, have made it in my mind not okay, I wrote about my mom because I think it is a learned reaction, if something is too big, too heavy, makes you feel overwhelmed, you just drop out of it. I'm crying now because it is really hard to think of what I have been going through with my ds as being like that. You know, the other day, I was talking to my best friend and I said, you know, I should just get a king size bed and be done with it, lol. I think I wanted my son to establish a sleep routine long before my dd would be realizing that hey, he's in mama's room, here I go too, oy... I did tell me ds a few nights ago that it is okay to sleep in my bed, that he can start sleeping in his own when he is ready. It's kinda like potty-training with him, it didn't really happen until I gave up and left it up to him. Gen, I can totally relate to the kind of behavior you described, that deliberate, gonna set out to ruin (in my case my dd's day) and grouch and stomp around the house. The more active times of day is when I do a bit better with controlling my anger and displining effectively; of course M-F we are at school, but during our home time, we do pretty well keeping busy. As I have been trying to calm down over the past several days, I have been realizing that my ds is sometimes just a very angry little boy, and his being upset over things isn't always him being "naughty." I sort of feel like our struggles, the yelling, the anger, is something I have created over the years and it is hard to think of "undoing it" but my ds has noticed a change, he has said a couple times over the weekend, 'mommy, you're not mad' or 'I like when you talk to me in your nice voice'. When I read your post, I couldn't help but nod my head in agreement. I remember being a little kid, and my parents(well, actually, I think it was more Mom than Dad) doing the really punitive style of discipline where everything deserved a spanking...especially if we were angry with her and we showed it. Getting angry at a parent for something was considered a sin, and we were punished for it. However, my Mom got really angry all the time, and yelled and screamed, and even when we were older and could stay alone at the house, sometimes she would even storm out of the house in a fit and go for a drive. She never seemed to let us know that she shouldn't have been acting like that, but for us, being angry with her was a sin. I never understood that.

However, the good news, is that since becoming a parent, God has really shown me that i need to help the boys learn how to "be angry and sin not". It was a real epiphone for me, because I had realized years back that its not a sin to get angry, but i didn't realize until I had kids, that I had to model that for them and that I had to help them deal with anger and learn to control it without sinning....basically teach them what it was, but teach them not to let it control them ...does that even make sense?

Anyway, we enacted a rule in our own house, that the kids can totally tell us they're angry at us, and even tell us they're so mad they want to scream, or whatever, but they may not be disrespectful or mean when they're angry, because that would be sinning. I learned to welcome the times when DS#1 comes to me and says "Mom, I'm so mad at you right now!" because I know its a time where i can teach him the right and good way to react in the midst of the anger, so he doesn't sin.

i feel very blessed that God showed me this in plenty of time so that I didn't continue the cycle that my Mom had... that gift from God makes me all teary right now, because without his assistance, I would've gone down the same path my Mom did, and even though I love my Mom dearly, I don't want to be that kind of mom to my kids.

You hit it right onthe head Mo, and I think I need to continue to pray daily, constantly even, to be able to process my own feelings and effectively teaching my kids to do the same. My son's teacher is a real blessing in this area, as she tecahes her class how to manage their strong emotions and encourages us parents to do the same; my ds also will sometimes say that I am making him so mad or that something is aggravating, and I try to validate the feeling and work thorugh it. There have admitedly been times though that I am like "oh you're mad, well that's too bad," or "you're a kid, I'm the boss" and though there are situations where that bottom line, cut and dry approach is needed, I can't allow it to be all the time, to the point that my son feels he can never express himself.

Anyway, we enacted a rule in our own house, that the kids can totally tell us they're angry at us, and even tell us they're so mad they want to scream, or whatever, but they may not be disrespectful or mean when they're angry, because that would be sinning. We have a similar rule of calm, quiet voices, but I could probably expand on that. My kids know that our house rules go for me to; I am after all, their only parent and primary role model, right? Who keeps me accountable? My ds sometimes, and the Holy Spirit, and of course, putting it all out here :)

double post

Yeah, there are some areas where we can expand upon. We havent always been like this and like I said in my title, We are very new to this. I do wish I had the wits about me to have started this with them a very long time ago but we've had some other family issues to iron out. We were in 'survival mode' for some long years there. I just felt I needed to explain that. Im so glad we have this thread together! What a blessing for it to finally be thriving.

Mo, thank you for sharing all that. I almost feel like I have to justify myself, lol. That particular situatiton is a very common one. One where Julie is annoying someone. I suspect its for attention. She is the type of child who wants attention, needs it, doesnt ask for it because she is so distracted by other fantastic things in life and I have to go and search her out. Normally I would have done exactly what you suggested. I actually kind of 'played the game' with them by not getting involved to see how they handled it. I think thats ok. Its like me guaging where they are at. Also, sometimes I do that because if i do go in straight away, Im not in the best frame of mind.

Im going to admit something to you guys. I am very frustrated. Im ok but have been dealing with some very personal, painful issues. I cantt go into details. Its been an ongoing thing. I love my children but right now I am happiest and most at peace when the house is empty and they are at school. I know they are safe and happy and fed and I can handle them for the hours they are home. Thats good. Four weeks ago I started a coarse of antidepressants. Not sure if you have read about it elsewhere here. So, I was genuinely tempted to say something like 'I cant stand being around my kids'. That breaks my heart but Ive been suffering from anxiety attacks for about 8 or 9 months now. Goodness, its amazing and really nothing short of a miricle, Gods grace, that has gotten me where I am right now, here today. Im on the road to recovery and Ive not done too badly. I can see where Ive genuinely grown because I cant help but be a good mum in some areas. lol.

Anyway. All this is effecting my ability to stay patient. I have lost it and shouted so loud at them for bickering that I made them cry. This is reflection time for me and time to consider the areas where I could improve. Then again maybe its just a time for me to relax, not over analyze (is that spelled right? Im getting bad! lol) myself and just enjoy our time together. Oh, I forgot to mention that my kids have a week off, lol. Im just going to create a home, or maintain a home where we are all happy, warm, fed and having good fun together. I involve the kids in just about everything. If Im cleaning the house, doing a mad dash, they gotta help. I let them finish the episode on tv or computer game, then its get busy time. I also get them involved in cooking or baking. We play computer games together, play monopoly or ahve uno tournaments or watch some tv together. We also just sit and enjoy quiet time together and sometimes it just ends in everyone laughing or in a pillowfight, like last night. Today we have to go to the mobile van library. my book is like 12 weeks overdue. £2 a day [whateww]. Before 9 months ago, we were very active, always out, checking out the local parks or nature trails, going to the library, we homeschooled. Since then I just cannot do it anymore. They started school again. Ive talked to the kids, the 8yo's about why, they understand and ive explained that its only for a short time, a season.

As well as parenting we have to deal with real life hard issues. I think its under this pressure, Andrea Im sure you can relate, its this kind of pressure that makes diamonds, ya know. And thats how I feel. God's grace is not just seeing us thru, helping us to make it despite the really difficult things but His grace, His touch, His presence in our lives is creating something as beautiful as a diamond. So, I dont want to fret anymore. I think we are doing a great job. Andrea, you bumping this thread was a bit of confirmation to me that I havent misheard God's instructions in this area, that I have obeyed Him in something.

phillipians 1:4-6 says...

4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

ok kids are up now. gonna go and start our day.

ttfn
gen

bump...


I just wanted to see if we could keep this thread going guys. I hope you are all doing well!! Hows it going guys?

gen

I'm doing well, just had a chance to check the forum here....right now its 9:40am here. Do you have any idea what time zone most of the forum members are in?

Do you guys have any suggestions on how to stop my almost 2 year old from getting into the aquarium? We just got it last week, and filled it and conditioned the water, so now its ready to add the fish, but he's constantly getting into it and playing, or reaching around the back of the stand and trying to grab the electrical cords for the heater and filter:shock: I am scared he's going to electrocute himself. I can probably figure out a way to make the cords inacessable, but the lid still has the lights in it, and I don't want him to fry himself while I'm taking a shower or if I have to run and throw a load of laundry in the washing machine.

I know eventually it will lose its appeal, but I am at a loss on how to keep him safe for right now...re-direction works while I'm in the room, but it doesn't keep him from sneaking up there when I leave the room.

Mo, the only thing I can think of to do is to make sure he knows its not a safe place to play. I know he's only a baby but Im trying to remember if at that age they can understand that kind of thing. If not than I would have to make sure the fish tank is in a safer place and make sure he isnt able to get at it while Im not in the room. Simply not leaving him alone until he's old enough to understand its not a good place to play. Its similar to not keeping the cleaning products in a place he could find them. How big is the fish tank. Maybe putting it in a different room, like your bedroom, until he can understand its not a safe place to play. I never had any trouble like that. Could you have a session everyday, for a few days, where you go up to the fish tank and say 'hello' to the fish? You could let him explore the fish tank with you present and talk about what is cool about the it and what is the safest way to enjoy it, what to avoid, etc. Obviously in a way a baby would understand. I think if you dp something like that everyday he will definately get it. When they are that young and exploring the world around them its just a case of never leaving them alone until they can understand things like that. We have to be there exploring it with them.

hth!
gen

Mo - i also thought about keeping the fish tank where he can't get to it. We also have a fish tank and I had to move it up where Renee can't reach it for the same reason. Hope you figure something out! i think it's great when children can have pets, even if it's just fish. my husband doesn't want anything more involved and right now that's probably best anyway. i don't have time to take care of anything else.
Gen - I think it's great that you are fighting a good fight! you are so right that sometimes there are other life things that we have to work on, besides parenting. It sounds like you are doing your best, with God's help. When I read your posts, it gives me courage to keep fighting in the areas where I struggle. [lovewuvu]

With our first fish tank, I kept it up high, on top of a cabinet that I had until I got rid of the cabinet and now it is at toddler eye level. I did spank my great-nephew's hand for putting soil in it, but my dd hasn't bothered it. I have also explained to all the kids who frequent my house that messing with it (hitting the glass, putting things inside, etc.) may hurt the fish and that seemed to help. Maybe once the fish are in it, it will be easier to explain. I also made sure to spend some time properly looking at the fish... HTH!

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

Sadly though, we can't move the tank. It weighs like 250-300lbs, and we only have one piece of furniture with the right dimensions to hold that kind of weight safely.

It's actually well above toddler eye level, but with DS#2, he's quite the adventurer. I think he started to climb before he could even walk without holding onto something. Last summer, when he was like in the 16-18 mo. range, you had to keep a VERY close eye on him out in the yard, because he would climb up in DS#1's fort and jump off...it's like 5 feet off the ground, so you had to be right there to catch him, he had no fear of heights.

Our home is only a rambler, so its all one floor, but even so, we already had to gate off the kitchen and the bathroom just to keep him off the counters and out of the cabinets, LOL. And then, we had to get a 2nd safety lock for the lock on the kitchen gate, because he figured out the first one when he was just 16 mos. old. There was one time when he was just barely walking, so maybe 9-10 mos. old, where he was playing on the floor in the kitchen with his brother, and DH and I were 5 feet away, and we turned around to say something to each other without little ears hearing, and we turned back, and he was sitting on TOP of the kitchen table. He hadn't made a sound, but was sitting up there smiling at us.

He is doing SO much better with his impulse control, but EVERYTHING is a challenge to him, and he really yearns to be adventurous, and climb, run, and jump off everything. DH and I are really curious about what God has planned him to be when he grows up.

He really is a good little kid, honest, but its in his heart to explore everything.

Hi Gen,

I'm new here, but thought I'd just jump on in and reply to you! I tried the spanking thing twice and came to the conclusion it wasn't for me. I felt that it was in both instances me reacting in anger, not trying to teach my child anything, and so I began the search for what would work for us. Currently I use a combination of two things: 1.) 1-2-3 Magic (your local library probably has this book and maybe even the video), along with your basic pickle/olive jar. [whatwacko] Let me elaborate.

I have a couple of old jars, one for each kid. I took a Sharpie and drew a line around the midpoint. Every time I catch my kids being good, doing a chore I've asked them to do, not whining while they do it, playing nicely together, using good manners, doing homework without complaining, etc - the sky is the limit here - I give them a marble to place in their jar. When they reach the first line, they get a reward that they've picked out (generally, the reward is worth $2 or less - a candy bar or DQ ice cream which is something they don't get often, trip to dollar store, that sort of thing. When they fill the jar, they get another reward (it takes a couple months to fill the jar, btw.)

The flip side to this is that I can take marbles away from them. They'll tell you it's completely unfair, lol, but it works! If they continually whine, I start counting (that's where the 1-2-3 Magic comes in. Read book first before using, though.) If I get to 3, I remove a marble. If I ask them to do a chore and they refuse to do it, I take a marble (and then they still have to do the chore! Now, if they hit each other or something bad like that, I immediately put them in their room for a time out and then go from there.

That's pretty much our main discipline/reward system around here. I've tried lots of things, but this combo of two systems works for us! My kids hate to lose a marble; you'd think it was the end of the world when I have to remove a marble from their jar. But prior to implementing this system, my kids' whining was outta control, time outs were becoming quite ineffective, and I needed something to motivate my kids to better behavior.

Good luck in your search for a new system of discipline!

I forgot all about 1-2-3 Magic; My sister in law had that book when her kids were small and mine was too little to think I'd ever need it, hehe... I have done similar things, such as a set of paper stairs, which "Mr. Behavior" could climb up or down, a "job" chart, etc. My problem is staying consistent and also knowing what to do when we are away from home. i have been finding prayer and consistency extremely helpful. There have been a couple episodes that have warranted spanking (ex: my son walked into the bathroom, opened the cabinet under the sink and peed, then looked at me to see if I had seen) but they are becoming fewer and further between. I think merely posting about the issue and trying to be deliberate in my daily discipline and dealings with the kids has helped tremendously. I also gave up on forcing my ds to sleep in his own bed. he obviously has security issues of some sort and I just told him I wasn't going to fight it anymore, that eventually he would be big enough to want to sleep on his own. I am hoping and praying that day comes sooner rather than later. The last couple nights he has headed for his room, as though to test my reaction, and asks "can I still go to sleep in your room?" I'm like, "Sure" and leave it at that. I knwo he is a bit old for co-sleeping 4.5 years old, but it works out alright and being that it is my fault it wasn't "solved" long ago, I decided it was best to just remove the pressure altogether... Anyways, I have a quick prayer request to go post. Chat later. PS Nice to meet ya Cheryl; I will have to give some more thought to the jar idea...

Andrea, I personally think that is brilliant. We, I am into finding solutions we are all happy with. There are things dh and I dont agree on but we still compromise. I think its a good thing to teach kids all around.

Hey Cheryl, Welcome!![welcomesign]

Its been an interesting journey, almost a quest for us as a family to find what works for us and I think we got it now. The reason I wont impliment a system like you described is because I am not the kind of person who can do with structure. See Im learning all this about myself. I've read parenting books or whatever, advice, and I try them and in the end I just cant keep it up. For me I think I simply prefer to see every incident as a special, unique moment to deal with. Sometimes I just yell, or raise my voice, loudly. I rarely scream and shout, rant and rave anymore. If I do they ALL (including dh) know Im about to blow, and they could be doing something to help. These kinds of relationships take time to develope, yk?

Oh and I think it was Mo who suggested making fighting sibs hold hands. Well we did it yesterday and it ended up being so funny. They ended up running thru the house having a blast holding hands! At first they were seriously annoyed, lol. That was funny to me in itself. Im beginning to have to make some 'changes' in the way the house is run and how housework is delegated. The room my dd's share is a total mess. I clean it, with them of course but, within 24 hours its probably a mess again. Dh and I are coming up with some strategies. He's suggested that he goes into their room to play with them one day and make a bit of a mess for them to clean up. I can sort of see how effective that might be... in making us wet ourself with laughter. And maybe the fact that someone else made a mess, DAD, in their room, somehow some reverse psychology fits in here somewhere somehow making them disgusted with the mess someone else left. I dont know. but I would find it funny. :twisted: Sunday Julie said, in one of those sweet voices, with her 'Im cute arent I?' look on her face and in her body language, 'I was wondering if you could help me clean my room so I can have a sleepover'. I said 'SURE!!' I got bored and started colouring, then I laid down on her bed. roflmbo! She said 'MUM!! You're supposed to be helping me!!'. I said, 'To be honest Julie, I didnt make ANY of this mess and Ive decided Im NOT going to be helping you clean it today'. No problems with me but they are NOT having a sleep over unless they keep their room tidy for three months! simple as that!

So, there ya go. Its all a learning curve. I think we can just do our best and keep on improving when prompted, huh.

gen

Anybody out there?

Just thought I'd bump this up again to keep the conversation going.

Update: DS#2 is slowly becoming accustomed to the aquarium, and has started to NOT play in it every day. I am so proud of him! I can't imagine how difficult it must be to NOT play in the really cool "pool" with the fishes that's right in the living room. It just seemed to take time and attention to get him to stop doing it....though DH did have to fish out like 6 crayons from the bottom of the tank yesterday, LOL. DS seems to like to see them in the bottom of the tank...

So has anyone read anything new about Gentle Discipline/grace based discipline? My most recent reads were Tim Kimmels book about Grace Based Discipline and the book The Five Love Languages for Children.

I havent read any gbd books, sorry. I have wanted to read the love languages books tho. We're good. had a great weekend. so glad to hear things are going well with the fish tank. a bit of perseverance always helps.

gen

I havent read any gbd books, sorry. I have wanted to read the love languages books tho. We're good. had a great weekend. so glad to hear things are going well with the fish tank. a bit of perseverance always helps.

gen


What about online GBD resources? I found www.gentlechristianmothers.com awhile back and they seem to have alot of resources, as does www.aolff.com. I like Aolff ALOT! It has alot of really great resources and studies into the Bible regarding the whole issue of spanking that I can use as a starting point for my own research and study into the issue.

Other good online sources for GBD is:

http://goybparenting.com/

& http://www.wholeheart.org/whmain.php
(the Clarkson's write some good books on gentle discipline) "Heartfelt Discipline" is a good one.

Other good online sources for GBD is:

http://goybparenting.com/

& http://www.wholeheart.org/whmain.php
(the Clarkson's write some good books on gentle discipline) "Heartfelt Discipline" is a good one.

Ohhhh!!!!!!!!!!!! I've heard of GOYB...Get off your butt parenting is such a cool title.

What's a good punishment for an 18 month old throwing a tantrum? Any ideas? I would rather not spank, but sometimes it seems that there aren't many other options.

What's a good punishment for an 18 month old throwing a tantrum? Any ideas? I would rather not spank, but sometimes it seems that there aren't many other options.
I don't know if this is the answer you're looking for...but this is what we do.

We don't punish for tantrums, unless there is disrespectful behavior or language, or unless our child hits or kicks us or his brother. The tantrum itself is an expression of emotion....usually emotion that they can't verbalize at the time. There's nothing wrong with expressing that they're angry with you. The key is to teach them to be angry and sin not...to deal with their anger, and not be disrespectful or hurt anyone else.

That being said, we don't allow them in public places, or allow them to disrupt the rest of our household.

In the case of an 18 mo. old, if I was out in public, I'd probably pick up the child and tell them calmly and quietly that they needed to calm down, and remove them fromt he situation, even if that meant going to the car so they didn't disrupt everyone elses lives. I would tell them it wasn't acceptable to behave that way, and probably give brief description of why.

At home, I would probably interrupt the tantrum by getting on their level and make sure they understood that I knew how they were feeling, like " I can see you're very angry because I won't let you have a piece of candy. I know how that feels. It's very frustrating." If they are kicking or hitting or whatever, I would physically stop them from doing that and explain why they aren't allowed to do it. If they weren't hurting anybody, or disrupting anything really, then I'd just make sure they knew I'd be there to talk when they were done getting it all out.

When they get a little older...maybe in the 2nd year, you can designate them an area where they can get all those feelings out and not cause a disruption if they have a tantrum. During a tantrum..maybe after age 2.5, we would tell DS#1 that he wasn't allowed to disrupt the family with his outburst, but if he needed to get it all out, he could go to his room and let it all out. If he didn't want to go there, we would remove him physically to his room (with the door open so he wasn't shut up in there). We always told him that the emotion was ok, but that he needed to know what to do with it and not sin, by hurting others or saying mean things etc. So he could yell as loud in his room as he wanted, but he couldn't say bad things about someone else, if that makes sense.

He will sometimes now ask to go to his room if he's really angry about something, and he'll let it all out, and then come back to the family in a much better frame of mind. But above all though, he doesn't call anyone names, or hurt anyone, or back talk.

The key though, is to teach them about emotions and how to verbalize them, but at the same time, not allow them to be disrespectful or hurtful....be angry but sin not basically.

"What's a good punishment for an 18 month old throwing a tantrum? Any ideas? I would rather not spank, but sometimes it seems that there aren't many other options. "


Well this is where grace based discipline is different from mainstream parenting. It's not about punishing..We try to look at the heart of the matter - the heart of the child. A BIG thing we try to do is educate ourselves on "age expected behavior" . GBD would say you're 18mo old is not throwing a fit b/c he's "bad" , he's throwing a fit b/c he's 18 mo old & doesn't have impulse control, self-control, language skills, comprehension skills, etc.
So we help our children thru tantrums & teach them how to deal with their emotions.
Here are some links that you might like to read:
This first one is on understand toddlers & their developmental behavior
http://askdrsears.com/html/6/T060400.asp

Here is one specifically on tantrums
http://askdrsears.com/html/6/T063300.asp


FWIW - when my 26mo old has a "meltdown" I acknowledge his feelings - but I keep my boundary firm. For instance I say "I know you mad" or "I know you are sad" just simple phrases (especially for an 18mo old). I'm amazed at just how much this can calm a child.
If the child's body is out of control , I say "you may be mad, but you may not hit" or "you may be mad , but you may not kick"

It may mean I need to swoop him up & take him to a quiet place to help him calm down. But a lot of what I did at 18mo with him was redirection & understanding if he was tired, hungry, thirsty, over-stimulated, etc.
FOr instance,when he is having meltdowns, ask yourself if he could be tired, hungry, etc & give him a drink or whatever he needs. Maybe he needs some cuddle time & special time with mom?
Never do I give "in" to the tantrum, meaning if he wants something he can't have, GBD would NOT say just give it to him. But we do help them thru their emotions while keeping our authority in place.

See i didnt come into gbd when my kids were very young. My twin girls are 8 now, almost 9 and my son is 7. I found the resources, like aalff and gentle christian mothers about 2 years ago. I know I did spank until then but even before that, I found in my old journals, I was already aware of all you said, and I did use a more gbd approach. I was under alot of pressure and I can be very mean looking and very stern under that kind of pressure so I know I have frightened my kids, spanked inappropriately. Now Im not so much trying to 'undo' all that I might have done to hurt them back then (and it wasnt that bad, really) but Ive consciously changed direction. My dh and I both have reletively short fuses. Anyway. I dont have time to read up on gbd but I tend to try to follow the Holy Spirit in my parenting.

Yesterday we were coming home from school. It can be a stressful time of the day, especially if we're on the bus, like yesterday. My ds got a bag of sweets from his classmate and all the way home he's dropping pieces. He's notorious for picking up sweets off the ground (grrr). So I look at him all serious, reading his mind, and I say 'Dont'. 'ok' was his quick reply. That was on the bus. We get off the bus and walk home and he drops one again. Sophie shouts 'Josh!! Dont eat it!!' Loud enough for me to hear, especially, it would seem, to get him in trouble. Automatic reaction mode kicks in and I shout 'PUT IT DOWN!! PUT THAT DOWN!!' And I have a bit of a rant. I know I was angry, I dont remember exactly what I said but I know I shouted at him, loud, and he was very upset with me about it all evening. Just before bed I pull him aside and say 'Im very sorry. I know your mad at me and I understand'. He's bouncing around nervously. I also say 'Im proud of you, you know. Because when you were younger and you got angry with me you would shout at me too and kick me and you dont get angry like that anymore'. Basically saying that I liked the way he expressed his anger. He told me he was angry with me and he didnt want to give me a hug. (noting in my mind that he actually behaved better than I did). I said thats ok but after about a half hour in bed I go upstairs to give Julie her medicine. I knock on for Josh and ask if he wants a hug now (he doesnt like going to bed without giving me a hug) and he says 'Only to say I forgive ya'.

I guess I really cant stand to follow any 'method' for parenting. I think so much comes into play. We're disciplining our kids and I dont know about the rest of you, but I feel like Im learning alongside with them. Im not the world's perfect parent but I feel like we're going thru all this together. Learning to forgive, how to have a peaceful home where there are the necessay boundaries and, ya know, concequences for stepping out of those boundaries. But to have and maintain a peaceful home, where everyone's needs are being met, compromises are made, etc.

Im sorry Im just rambling on, lol. I think Im just laying it out there for myself to analyse, ya know.

gen

[QUOTE=kalihi76;107588
It may mean I need to swoop him up & take him to a quiet place to help him calm down. But a lot of what I did at 18mo with him was redirection & understanding if he was tired, hungry, thirsty, over-stimulated, etc.
FOr instance,when he is having meltdowns, ask yourself if he could be tired, hungry, etc & give him a drink or whatever he needs. Maybe he needs some cuddle time & special time with mom?
Never do I give "in" to the tantrum, meaning if he wants something he can't have, GBD would NOT say just give it to him. But we do help them thru their emotions while keeping our authority in place.[/QUOTE]

I agree...

Check out the other kids and parents the next time you're at Walmart or a similar big store. If you have time to watch, you'll notice that 95 % of the tantrums are preceeded by " I'm Tired!, "I'm hungry!", " I'm thirsty!" or just "When will we be DONE?!" many times, over and over and over again, without the parent even hearing it. Then, after the tantrum starts, you'll see a parent say: "Stop it RIGHT NOW! Do you want a spanking?"

It's really easy to forget the hungry, tired, thirsty, uncomfortable triggers for tantrums sometimes. I've noticed that if you interrupt a tantrum and offer those things, sometimes the tantrum stops. In the toddler stage, they're not usually verbal enough to get us to understand completely, and I think we miss the early cues sometimes. I know I've contributed to more than one tantrum by missing cues as to what one of the boys needed.[sadashamed]

.
I guess I really cant stand to follow any 'method' for parenting. I think so much comes into play. We're disciplining our kids and I dont know about the rest of you, but I feel like Im learning alongside with them. Im not the world's perfect parent but I feel like we're going thru all this together. Learning to forgive, how to have a peaceful home where there are the necessay boundaries and, ya know, concequences for stepping out of those boundaries. But to have and maintain a peaceful home, where everyone's needs are being met, compromises are made, etc.



I agree with that. Some AP/GBD parents may look at some of what I do & think I'm too harsh...other's may think I'm too lenient. But I strive to live as Paul tells us & "not provoke your children to anger"

I do look for GBD or gentle parenting books to help me learn the effective tools for how to deal with situations. Mainly b/c I am a mom of very little patience & can be easily angered. If I don't have the tools in my toolbox at a time of upset with my children, then I'm more likely to act harshly with them.

And my it was heart-warming to hear how you talked to your son about his anger & how proud you were of how he dealt with it.. That was wonderful to read!

thank you. I may look into some of the websites mentioned again. Refocusing on it again. I do like the way we are encouraged to be creative with our discipling. On aolff site i was reading about the 'King' of her castle, her dh and how to get his attention, one night after he got home from work she had a box on her head decked out to look like the tv. Her dh obviously asked what was wrong with her and she said something like 'Well i thought it might make you feel more comfortable talking to me if my head was shaped like the tv'. lol,I feel like that sometimes with my dh and the computer but i havent been so creative, I just get stroppy and stomp off and he knows... lol

gen

I just found this thread and I cant believe i missed it. I havent read all the posts, but wanted to say that I love GBD even though I have totally failed recently. I really need to re read some of the articles and get some support so that I can have a better relationship with my kids. When I was consistent, I really did feel that my attitude, the kids attitudes and our overall relationship was way better than it ever was when I was using other dicipline methods.

yay for all the GBD mothers out there!!!!

I'm really keen on GBD too. I'm really interested in hearing how others are using these techniques in those really tough behavioural stages. My kids have been great lately - but sooner or later we all hit a tough developmental stage with kids behavior (which is really hard to know how to deal with). I have found that my son reacts really well to having a quiet chat with me in his room regarding any inappropriate behaviour - although at times it is hard to juggle this with his little sister also needing attention.

Wow,its bn a while for me here. been off the internet for some weeks and its been interesting. We've had some problems with bad attitudes over the spring break and i have to confess to you all that I did spank my dd Sophie. It was when we were to be doing her homework and her attitude was very bad. I talked to her about it and no change. She's almost 9. She can have a rotten attitude which I can sometimes sympathise with; being 'bullied' (more annoyed) by some boys in her class. But I saw something in her that needed something more than the typical gbd approach. I still felt I was 'gracious' but the child needed a spank. She was not even letting go of the attitude after the first spank. I had to go into the other room, get the spatula and do it again. And again would you believe it! I was calm, in control and it was a situation where I was working for the benefit of her (she needed to get her homework done,we hadnt looked at it in 2 weeks!) and that she needed me, in that instance, to take control. And we went on to cuddle a minute and go on to do her homework. My other two got spanked for something I think too, over the break.

Anyway. I wanted to catch up. i know these 'incidents' arent part of the typical gbd methods but I sometimes wonder if you have to safely and calmly explore all the options when trying to be a good parent. I saw a root of somethinng not right in my dd. I didnt feel I needed to 'put her in her place' somuch as thinking 'Hey, she's little and she needs to know how to be more respectful, and yes more humble'. I wasnt lording it over her 'Listen to me or Ill spank you!'. It was more 'Love, you arent doing yourself any favours with that attitude, stop now, learn now with a minor bum smack or learn it at a later time when someone else, who isnt so full of grace/love/mercy (for her) comes along and teaches her a harder lesson'. Does that make sense?

Anyway. Its not been all about spanking, lol. We've had lots of fun together. Hung out lots over the break. I love my kids to bits. Josh isnt so well. He hada fever and was off school yesterday. He is so sweet when he is ill. So quiet and happy even. Smily. Anyway. gotta go now.
talkagain soon.

In Christ,
gen

I saw a root of somethinng not right in my dd.

gen

Hey Gen!
Glad you're back! I have no judgment or anything toward you regarding the spanking. While it doesn't fit at all within grace based discipline. I do believe that grace is available for mom's too & we all make mistakes.. although I'm getting from what I read, that you may not look at it as a mistake?

At any rate, I wanted to ask you , did you think spanking your dd is getting to the "root of something not right in her?"
Does spanking speak to the heart, or teach your dd responsibilities for herself?
Spanking is really our way to physically control a child momentarily-to get them to do what we want now, but doesn't lend itself to teaching or getting to the heart of the matter. It may give you a compliant child that will get her homework done at that moment - but I would ask myself - is spanking teaching my dd to do her homework b/c it's important for her academic learning/standing, or is she now doing it out of fear of physical pain?
See you may get the same end results with or without spanking - the homework gets done. But it's *how* we got there that is instilled in the heart & mind of our children. :-)

I completely understnad what you are sayinng. I know that perhaps we shouldnt have waited till sunday afternoon to do the homework. simple as taht and really because she is 9 I still have to motivate her to do her homework. Laziness onmy part in a way. Saying that, there is a lot more to the story than I can give details for, yk. so I appreciate you not judging me. In that instance. Being a parent is hard and there are all kinds of variables, yk? We havent gotten there yet. Nope, no one's perfect. gotta go. ttfn

gen

I Being a parent is hard and there are all kinds of variables, yk? We havent gotten there yet. Nope, no one's perfect. gotta go. ttfn

gen
You're right. There's definately no cookie-cutter answer to issues with our kids! I struggle with my patience & speaking harshly to my kids. It soooo hard for me to keep that in check when something happens. Sometimes I do , but sometimes I don't. We're definately not perfect here either. I'm so glad that God extends grace to us as parents....I try to extend that same grace to my kids (although I don't always do the best job):-)

You're right. There's definately no cookie-cutter answer to issues with our kids! I struggle with my patience & speaking harshly to my kids. It soooo hard for me to keep that in check when something happens. Sometimes I do , but sometimes I don't. We're definately not perfect here either. I'm so glad that God extends grace to us as parents....I try to extend that same grace to my kids (although I don't always do the best job):-)

I am so glad you posted this! I am having such a hard day today dealing with the kids, because dh is gone on a bus. trip and DS#2 didn't really sleep last night...so neither did I... Anyway, I am having such a hard time not snapping at every little thing today. To top it off, DS#2 is in a foul mood obviously, from lack of sleep, or whatever reason he wasn't sleeping last night, and has been kicking and hitting already this morning....which makes DS#1 very sad, because he's so gentle hearted that he doesn't understand why his brother (who he loves dearly) would ever try to hurt him. And then, its hard for me to explain that at age 2, DS#2 doesn't understand that his physical actions are hurting people...he's just frustrated and tired. DS#2 really is a sweet, kind, helpful little boy...he is just VERY strong and doesn't understand how his actions hurt others yet.

So anyway, thanks for reminding me that I'm not the only one who struggles with patience and reminding me that God extends grace to me too, even when I snap and yell at the kids out of frustration.

I completely understnad what you are sayinng. I know that perhaps we shouldnt have waited till sunday afternoon to do the homework. simple as taht and really because she is 9 I still have to motivate her to do her homework. Laziness onmy part in a way. Saying that, there is a lot more to the story than I can give details for, yk. so I appreciate you not judging me. In that instance. Being a parent is hard and there are all kinds of variables, yk? We havent gotten there yet. Nope, no one's perfect. gotta go. ttfn

gen Is there more going on that you want to talk about? It sounds like you need a couple of hugs and some extra support.

I also wanted to share with you some of my own experiences with being spanked by my parents at the same age as your daughter is now. I remember most of them, and honestly, the spankings usually led to anger and hostility towards my mom, but what really worked to get me to change my heart in those instances where I was being rebellious or cocky or snotty, or whatever, was when my mom sat me down at the table with the Bible and showed me the portions of scripture that dealt with what I was doing. When she showed me the black and white of how what I was doing was making God sad and hurt, and that I was sinning and needed to repent and get things right with God, THAT changed my heart.

To this day, my mom probably thinks that all those spankings helped turn me around, but it wasn't the spankings, it was the Word of God that Mom was teaching me that convicted me and helped me to repent and turn around.

My mom was also very good about making sure my sisters and I were reading our Bibles daily once we could read, and praying daily as well. She also read to us (like a devotional).

I've been reading "playful Parenting" by Cohen. It's a wonderful book, I'm almost done.. anyway, though I'd share some good thoughts about punishment (vs discipline).

"When I see what people punish their children for, it often looks to me as if the child was doing something pefectly normal & ordinary for their age.Toddlers throw tantrums or won't share. Preschoolers can't sit still. 8yr olds run down the hall. Preteens say "I hate you". We punish children for being messy, for being noisy,for being selfish,for being cranky when they're tired,for being impulsive-in short , for being children.
Children cannot be punished into maturing faster or scolded into somehow skipping a step of child development. Of course , we need to manage these behaviors,to help them move to that next stage of development when they CAN share, or walk calmly down a hall, or be polite. But punishment does not rush development. If anything, it slows down development."

The author goes on to say that what most people call "discipline" - they actually describe punishment. Anyway, he has a lot of good ideas & ways to teach (discipline)...

Just thought I'd share since it's been a while on this thread! :-)

Old thread but I'd like to re-open it... ask if those who were doing the GBD have still found it to be the best way to go? Anything you would've done different? Results? Points of view? Advice?

I was reading Shepherding a Child's Heart and Loved it... we thought spanking was "the way to go" ... Something in my heart kept telling me not to spank because my parents never spanked any of us (not even time outs) ... were we too good? who knows... but I remember we all looked at "tantrum-throwing-kids" like "aliens" (LOL!) when we were just kids... My parents always used love and grace (even before being saved), not letting us do "what we wanted to do" and their discipline ways were more "mental" (LOL!) than anything... my father was here for a visit just recently, and he was shocked Josh and I spanked Natalia... he was actually disappointed ...he is not nosey (please don't think bad of my dad) he gave us his advice very graciously and of course left it up to us to do what we thought was better and even added "sorry, I know you guys know more of the Bible than I do, I just hope you just *TRY* not spanking" we were spanking only when it was REAL willful disobedience but still something inside my heart kept telling me "I knew this wasn't right! At least not *for us*" Josh still believes spanking is an option but is willing to look into other options (of course he doesn't enjoy spanking Natalia either) I am willing to follow his leadership but I want to do everything possible to find other ways, always GOD's way!

I must add that since we stopped all spanking Natalia's been less "nervous" (not pulling her hair as much as she used to) and is soundly sleeping in her "big girl bed" all night without interruption (she used to call one of us to sleep by her every night! or crawl up our bed during the night) ... I feel we are on the right path by not spanking her... the whole spanking her thing was weird... she would act up even more and would even say "Spank daddy" (like asking for it) it's like she was pushing all our buttons to get spanked... just weird! now even her tantrums are shorter and not as frequent (as she doesn't get anything from them) ... I am very interested in knowing specific things to do in specific cases... Looking forward to hearing from all of u!

Hugs!

Paloma.

ETA: We still love most of the things said on "Shepherding a child's heart" because it focuses on the heart of the kid, not on behavior only..... just wanted to clarify that!

ETA (again) ... I even found this page.... and found it interesting... what do you all think? Had you ever heard anything like this? ---> http://www.parentingbythebook.com/Proverbs-1324.html

I've always thought there was a place for spanking... that's how both hubs and I grew up and with our first we did it a lot. But as we've gone along we've gotten a little more "grace-ful" and I'm trying to view it as Jesus views us. He is so full of mercy and grace! But, I also need to remember that with children you are training for life, while adults are "maintaining". The way I look at it now is that willful, blatant disobedience or premeditated lying are the only things we spank for. And it ends up being maybe once every 2-3 months? Totally unlike the daily spankings with ds#1!

Thanks for posting that article, Paloma! I read it to dh and we both are in complete agreement with what it says. We do choose to use spanking from time to time with our kids, but it is certainly far from the first thing we employ when disciplining them. We agree with the author of the article who says that 'spanking is an example of "the rod"' but 'The effectiveness of their (a parent's) leadership will minimize the necessity.'

Thanks for the responses... Kim and Margi! I appreciate your comments and truly meditate in each word! :) I am trying to learn to do what's best and what's godly in regards to parenting! Wow! I thought I knew it all ... and then the children came and proved me wrong! LOL! ... What I mean is that "theories" might sound great but then each kid is different but they all know how to keep parents on their toes!

As I said, my dad and mom never agreed with spanking... and here we are, all saved, all serving the Lord, all different from each other but in our hearts always fearing God! I guess I always knew my parents COULD spank me... and that it was always "up to them" to do it or not... I don't even remember in detail what they did exactly I just remember that I never wanted to disappoint my dad (that's before we were Christian) and later (when I was 8 and got saved) it was even easier to obey because there was now Someone Else I didn't want to disappoint... Being older I got far from God but I would say that God's love through my parents is what made me go back to them... and many of the times when I've thought God's given me "a spanking" it was actually just consequences of my bad choices and sin... (not that He hasn't disciplined me of course!)

I will say that something else that always made *ME* feel "weird" inside of me was the whole "I am spanking you BECAUSE I love you and God loves you and He gave me the job to guide you and protect you and spank you if you disobeyed" It dawned on me when I saw Natalia spanking her doll and saying "God loves you, I love you, I spank you"... I just ... ugh... I don't know... it didn't feel right (for ME)

Thanks ... I hope I learn more because I FEAR with HORROR not being a mom that purposefully, diligently and Godly raises her kids, I'd rather spank them all day long than "losing them" for not doing what I should be doing... I am more concerned with the eternal consequences of doing or not doing than the temporary consequences there might be out of my choice of spanking or not....

I can handle my kids being upset with me... I can't handle them not wanting to know about the Lord and His love for my poor parenting skills...

-sigh-

Paloma.

ETA: I RE-READ what I wrote and I DO KNOW we spank because WE LOVE our kids... I just feel that spanking a 2 yr. old and trying to explain it to them like that might end up being confusing rather than clear.

I think you're right, Paloma. Explaining spanking to a young child like that could potentially be confusing. They are too young to comprehend that kind of concept. If it is helpful to you, when it becomes necessary for dh or I to spank, one of the conversations we have with the kids is (loosely speaking... you can word it however you like!) "Do Mommy and Daddy like spanking you?" "Do you like getting a spanking?" Of course the answer to both is no. This is one way we teach the kids that we don't spank for the fun of it, we don't spank to be 'powerful', etc. But the kids know that when they behave a certain way, the consequence is a spanking. It is a physical reminder to change their behaviour. We believe that young kids (who are too young to reason with, thus too young to do much in depth explaining) sometimes need the physical response. However, it's important to remember that ultimately what we are teaching our kids is to be obedient. To us and to God. (Not to behave in such a way as to avoid spankings.) The spanking therefor shouldn't be the focus of the situation. The *relationship* and how we are both to respond is. I hope that makes sense...