I have a question regarding punishments. My little girl is 21 months old and is hitting the "terrible twos." For a while I did nothing but spank her when the behavior got bad enough and then it seemed that that did no good. Then I put her in the corner with her nose in it. For a while that worked great and then she decided that she didn't care about that anymore. Finally I have resorted to putting her in her room for timeout and like all of the other punishments that only worked for so long. Now I am kind of alternating between all three.

Suggestions??? Is it normal for me to have to switch up punishments? Would there be something else I could try that might be more effective. The behavior is mostly attitude issues and temper tantrums that I am concerned with.

Thanks!
Sara

My ds is 21 mths old too, maybe I'm getting old, or maybe it's cause my kids are older but he is still such a baby, (we don't spank), but what works best for me is just to walk away, they are all about attn.....he hates jackets and screams everytime I put it on I just put it on, carry him to his car seat, and ignore the fit, he usually stops before he even gets in his seat....I also try to praise his good behavior....he just moved to a big bed, (was putting the side down on the crib...smarty), at night he throws a fit and trys to climb out, I just ignore it, put him back in and continue to read or sing....and he eventully stops...dd

Ds is the same age and we use logical consequences; it works really well because it makes sense to him that his naughty actions have consequences, y/k?

Christina,

Maybe I am just a little slow but could you explain logical consequences a little more for me.

Sara

Theres a comercial that shows a mom running down the street after her lil boy, they get to the corner and she says "how many times have I told you not to go to the corner/curb" (something like that) and the lil boy says "what a corner?".......makes you think.....dd

I just saw this thread, but I think that logical consequence is a lot like natural consequence, in that the punishment fits the "crime." (Correct me if I'm wrong Christina). An example of this is if a child acts up while playing with a favorite toy, the toy gets taken away. If it is during a favorite show, the show goes off. I generally reserve time outs for when my son gets totally out of control, and then I instruct him to take a break- I have used that sam e language since before he was two and they are very infrequent at this point. Spanking is something I reserve for behavior that is completely out of line, in which I must get his attention more than I feel talking about something will do. I don't know if that was any help, lol, but I think logical or natural consequence simply means that you try to use a punishment that is relative to the behavior that you want to change so that it doesn't confuse the child. Something like, telling my son that I am going to terminate sleepover plans that we have three days from now if he doesn't cooperate and get dressed for school would be an extreme example of illogical or unnatural consequence. Telling him that he might miss the school bus if he doesn't comply is a natural consequence of the undesired behavior. Make any sense?

I just wanted to add after posting this that I too have had my struggles with feeling like I was spanking too much and without the self-control that I should exert. Looking back, that all hapened at a real low poitn in my life and sadly enough I think I wa staking it out in some ways on my child. Being open about it and looking for creatuve solutions is one of the bestthings I ever did to change the pattern and fortunately, I don't think my son has any recollection of it.

Andrea,

Thank you for the thoughts on natural consequence. I do understand that a lot of time the punishment should fit the crime. My concern is more attitude issues. Normally when Rhy talks back she gets a little tap with two fingers on the mouth. Nothing that even hurts just something to let her know that what came out of her mouth was wrong.

Sara

I think that punishments have to vary to be effective....right along with what's been said already...sometimes it makes sense to take the toy away and redirect when they're out of line with it and other times a time out works, etc.....depends on where you are, who you're with, what they're doing, etc.....not to mention the mood your kiddo is in or the stage they're going through....trial and error each time for all of us! :roll:

Andrea,

Thank you for the thoughts on natural consequence. I do understand that a lot of time the punishment should fit the crime. My concern is more attitude issues. Normally when Rhy talks back she gets a little tap with two fingers on the mouth. Nothing that even hurts just something to let her know that what came out of her mouth was wrong.

Sara

Yeah, that seems about right; I do a little "flick" on the mouth for talking back, disrespect, etc. As far as attitude goes, when i see attitude in my son, I see myself; he is quick to be frustrated and growls/scowls when he's angry. For this set of behaviors, I have had to work diligently at modeling positive behavior and trying hard to teach him mor eeffective ways of self-expression... It is such a process but it is such an encouragement to know that other moms go through the same battles.

Sorry it took me so long to reply! justmeandmine explained it really well: Natural or logical consequences aren't necessarily "punishments", but more of allowing situations to teach children and then giving way for parents to help their child understand the consquence.

Punishment really only happens if a child gets caught, and even the most angelic of children learn very quickly that the way to avoid punishment is to either not do what they got punished for...or just do it secretly and not get caught. Natural consquences teach even a very young child that there is still a result to their actions, even if no one catches them in the act. Logical consequences are usually applied by the parent if a natural consquence isn't likely to happen or if it is too dangerous to allow a natural consequence.

For example: ds recently dicovered that he has the ability it climb onto the kitchen table, though he doesn't know how to get down yet. If I allowed a natural consequence like him falling off of the table that would be really dangerous, so instead I apply a consquence of removing him, telling him "No climbing on the table" and putting him in his crib for a few minutes. He throws a fit at being captive, but once he calms down I remind him that we do not climb on the table. Sure it will most likely take a few more infractions until he learns, BUT I would rather that than he learns to get down by himself so that later on he can just climb up and down when I'm not right there, so he can avoid punishment by not getting caught.

But there are times when a little hurt from a natural consquence is best. Like the family I babysit for has a cat that is pretty used to children, but has his limits. A cat is all new to ds so of course he wants to pet it, so I showed him how to pet gently. He's a little boy, so I knew it was only a matter of time before he didn't pet quite so gently, and I corrected him whenever I saw him getting a little to rough. One day, I wasn't right there in the room and I guess he got a little too inquisitive with the cat and ended up getting scratched; not too hard, but enough for the cat too teach him not to be so rough. I comforted him and talked about why he needs to be gentle, even if I'm not there to see it because animals will defend themselves if they get scared. Maybe the "right" thing to do would have been to banish the cat in the first place to "protect" ds from possibly getting scratched (like my mil insisted), but I would rather he learns this lesson from a tame, child-friendly kitty than from someone else's grouchy old tomcat who doesn't hold back.

I feel like even at this very young age ds is learning true self-control, rather than just me being in control of him (of course there has to be a balance because he is still in the learning process). I've seen it when he doesn't realize I am watching him: he'll reach for something he shouldn't, then stop and shake his finger "No." If it was punishment that he was afraid of then he would make sure I wasn't in the room and then do the "deed" before I come back :lol:

I forgot to add that this isn't a new concept, just one that has been forgotten about: about a year ago I stumbled upon a book published in 1831 called "The Mother's Book" by Mrs. Childs. It is all about child-rearing from birth through the teen years. and is written by a Christian woman. Right off the bat the book clicked with my own feelings toward discipline. One thing that really shaped my perspective was how the author explained the concept of being a silent influence over a young child (rather than bombarding him with rules) because young children naturally immitate their parents and learn the rules of the home by observing their parents, leaving the parents to step in when necessary. We've been very successful with following this concept.

Thank you so much for all of the insight. I know that from time to time I do get frustrated because it seems that I keep punishing Rhy for the same things over and over. I love the kitty idea although we don't have any animals. Normally though if she is throwing a temper tantrum and hits the wall or the coffee table and hurts herself I just kind of let her understand that it was her own doing.

I don't know about you but I am having more and more respect for my own mother now that I know everything she went through. I guess I want my child to be well behaved and polite. Sometimes it is just frustrating because I don't always see the light at the end of the tunnel.

My daughter just turned 2 yrs old & I'm wondering where did that 'sweet angel' go!?!? I just keep remember the advice my Aunt gave me though when I had her. She said parenting should look like a pyramid...the more discipline & training you do when their young (at the bottom), as they grow up...the less you have to do. She said most parents though discipline & train like an upside down pyramid...they do less when they're young & the older they get, the more they have to do. She said there were days she was 'flat'exhausted from being 'consistent' but it paid off. Her boys are very obedient most of the time now. I just try to be consistent no matter how minor something may seem. My discipline varies as well. There are times I have had to spank. There are other times, I've had to put her in time out in her crib until she calms down. There are other times, I just flat tell her 'no' & ignore the tantrum if she throws it. I don't ever give her her way though just so she will stop whining or because it's convenient for me to 'let it go'. And I've learned that by ignoring the tantrum, it doesn't last long at all. Kevin Leman has a lot of disciplining advice (he's written many books) on reality disciplining...where we teach our children there are natural consequences. For example, my sister-n-law was having a hard time getting her 5 yr old boy out the door to school on time. So one day, he wasn't ready, so she made him go to school that particular day in his pj's as he was. She just explained to the teacher what she was teaching him & he never ever did it again. He is now the first one ready for school in the morning. I have a 12 year step-daughter & my husband shared w/ me how he broke her from 'pottying' in her panties when she just didn't want to stop playing when she like 4 years old. They were at a Birthday party & he asked her multiple times if she had to go potty & she kept saying 'no' cuz she just didn't want to stop playing & guess what? Had an accident. He told her he was sorry that she had an accident but she should have stopped playing to go 'potty' & he didn't take her home to change. She was soo embarrassed that she never ever did it again. Natural consequences for choices. My aunt's boys are 10yrs & 8yrs now...and the oldest boy started 'forgetting' his homework...so she started to charge him the 'gas money' to go back to the school to get it. That only happened twice when he realized he was 'losing money'. Lots of ideas on natural consequences. I understand the frustration though w/ a 2 year old becasue I'm there too...but as long as we are consistent then they will learn there are natural consequences as we train them & love them.

God Bless

Oops...I wanted to add. I only spank when she is being directly 'disobient' or her 'safety' is at stake. She's at a stage where there are many many things she knows for certain she should not do & lately she intentionally does them 'testing' me...and if after a warning, she continues to be directly 'disobedient'...she gets a swat. That usually stops it there. Occassionally, we move to the next step of time-out in the crib. But, when it comes to her safety...that's another thing. She knows she does not go in the street. Praise God, she has not 'tested' me on that yet...but if she did, I would give her a 'swat' right then cuz I would want to drive home the point that the street is OFF limits...that's for her safety. And personally, when it comes to her safety when it's something that could either harm her really bad or even result in death, I'd rather spank first than to deal w/ that natural consequence!! I do not over use spanking but there are times when I believe it is neccessary...and generally for her, one swat is effective.

Thanks Joy! Even though I'm just beginning cuz my daughter is 2 years old, it is tiring. But I just remember what my Aunt said & it keeps me going daily. And your affirmation is added encouragement!! :lol:

I agree with the natural consequences thing.

Abi is about 2 1/2 and I have noticed that we have had to switch between our training techniques. We have done spanking, flicking the mouth, time outs etc. My husband tells me to be the policeman when teaching and disciplining. He says a police officer doesn't pull you over and scream at you about breaking the law...he just pulls you over and deals out the consequence.

anyway, RhysMom was saying it was more of the attitudes that was a problem. The only thing I can add is that I talk alot to Abi about her choices. If she is crying to get attention or throwing a tantrum to get something I said no to or just any attitude that I don't think is appropriate I get on her level and say, "Abi look at Mommy." wait for her to look "You are not making good choices. Mommy wants you to make a good choices. You can choose to stop crying or you can choose to sit in time out until you can make a good choice. What is your choice?" Sometimes she picks time out but most times she makes the correct choice and stops whatever the behavior is.

Just a thought. I have talked about choices with her from the begining and she understands she has a choice in her behavior and that it isn't just Mommy forcing her. I saw too much lack of self control in my sister's kids and other kids before I had my own and I wanted to start from the beginning trying to teach them self control and good choices over leaving them to figure it out on their own.

Melanie

Melanie, I like the idea of talking to her. Sometimes it just seems like she is uncontrollable...does any of this make sense? Normally she does very well but she does have her days.

I love the thought of the pyramid. It really makes it seem like there is a point to all of this parenting. I know that sounds bad but I feel so bad always punishing her but if it makes the preteen years better then that makes me a lot happier.

Attitude is tough with 2 and 3 year olds because they either don't have the words to express their feelings, or just don't quite understand what their feelings are yet. I'm a grown woman and I still have occasional days where I'm in a funk and have no idea why...children are no different, except they haven't learned how to cope with their feelings in any other way than to lash out.

I understand the uncontrollable thing. If she is too upset for me to get on her level and talk to her about it then I make the choice for her and tell her so.

What I do in those situations is to sit on the floor, put her in my lap facing away from me and wrap my arms (and sometimes I had to use mylegs too) around her holding her until she calms herself. The whole time I calmly whisper in her ear "When you calm down I will let you go" or "when you make the choice to calm down I will let you go" repeating until she calms down. The idea is that if she can't control herself, you provide a safe and controlled restriction until she can control herself. I have only had to do this three times and we don't have that uncontrollable problem anymore. She doesn't like be "held" like and so she has learned that if she doesn't want to be "held" then she needs to stay "in control".

I only used this when it was REALLY bad...I mean total melt down type of thing. it made sense to me because sometimes I wondered if she wouldn't hurt herself thrashing around throwing the temper tantrum. This provided a safe alternative to walking away.

It worked for us anyway. Now she doesn't get to that extreme and so I can usually get on her level and talk the choices thing.

Melanie

A book called "To Train up a Child" has been very helpful- em has been a monster lately. I'd say that consistancey with the method is not as important as consistancey in punishing the bad behavior. Right now something that has been helpful is giving the opposite to em's desired out come. Like the other day she wanted to go to L.L.Beans to see the trout pond and the tents=) She was horrid in the post office so, I said no way. The next day she stayed on good behavior and got to go. There are certian behaviors that get spanked, bare bottom with a paddle-lying, and angry screaming at me. There are some behaviors that get sent to her room (which is effective for her since she doesn't like to be alone)- whining, crying in response to something she doesn't like, grawling at me. . . you just need to stay home and deal with the yuckiness swifty and consistantly- every.single.time it happens. "I'm the mommy, here's the line, you may not cross it without consequences". My latest battle is that she's managable at home but has been a BEAST in public! I'm having to figure that out right now=(

I agree completely that consistency is key with punishments. My big battle right now is the word "no." Whenever Rhyanne doesn't get her way she looks me right in the eye and tells me no! My other concern is when she doesn't get her way she tries spanking me. I know that she is in daycare and that some of this behavior is learned from other children. The daycare she is in is a Christian one so I don't want to pull her out and I know that she is going to learn bad behavior from children no matter what. I just want to know what happened to my wonderful infant who would just sit in my arms and snuggle. The child who I rocked to sleep and who just layed on a blanket and cooed?

I have "flicked" the mouth for "No" or any kind of being fresh/disprespectful and I say "You are going to speak kindly to me (your friends, grammy, etc.) There was a week or two when it seemed like I was on my son's case non-stop, but I wa sconsistent in addressing every slip of his mouth, every "no!" and senseless screaming was treated the same way. Now, I simply ask my son (3yo) if he is sure he wants to be fresh with his mouth, and he quickly apologizes; it is rare that he gets real fresh anymore, though one of my friend's sons has been known to say he hates her and mine decided he'd try that one out. I tapped his mouth and made sure it was clear that we will not use the word hate... Some of my friends have thought I was harsh (including the one whose child openly says he hates her) but if they are old enough to know that they are being fresh, then they're old enough to be disciplined for it. Again, I have had to make a simultaneous effort to make sure that I am modeling proper, respectful language and actions- sometimes, that is the harder part.